This is going to be a great post of GDIT I GIVE.

[raaj]

She wears red every night. And every night, it falls away, and she sees herself just the way he loves her:

Bright green eyes. A smile that's learned and earned its charm by the years. Thick, wavy brown hair falling past graceful shoulders and curling over her breasts and hips, just curvy enough for her liking...and apparently enough for his too. Looking in the mirror under the soft yellow-tinged light and feeling the certainty of her desirability is its own little arousal, a giddiness that has her bouncing up on the balls of her feet and touching herself, from the side of her neck to her collarbone to her breast to her stomach where the excitement dulls; her hand pauses, and then flattens, fingers splaying over the skin to hide a jagged scar.

She hates that mark. It shouldn't mean anything, it doesn't deserve to mean anything, but it holds such a terrible significance. She stares at the mirror, trying to untangle its grip on her and missing both his approach and her name being called. When his warm hand displaces the cold air over her own, it's as though he's appeared from nowhere. But she knew to expect him. The way he's missed her is written all over his face, laid barer than her skin.

His body is significantly more covered up, since all of his clothes are still on. At least the armor's not.

"Sorry. If I'd been quicker..."

"Why are you always overdressed for this?" she complains, turning around to pluck at the faded fabric of his shirt, and totally sidestepping his apology. She knows he's not regretting his tardiness tonight but a different time altogether, one she'd rather not revisit.

He presses, though, his hand still cradling hers between their bellies. "If I'd figured it out sooner..."

"You figured it out just in time. I'm here, aren't I?" She hates the scar as a sign that she could have not been--the moment's still fresh in her mind, as though it just happened again, Sephiroth swooping down and Cloud having only enough time to pull her out of the way of a fatal blow with one still being received--but she is here.

She's here.

The hair on the nape of her neck prickles and she turns her hand to lace their fingers together, stepping closer to have more of his body heat. "So. This is a serious question I have. Why are you always overdressed?"

He looks at her a moment longer, his bright blue eyes so uncertain and vulnerable. Happily, he relaxes into a small, mischievous smile. "When it makes you pout like that...I just have to be."

"You're a bad tease."

"Sorry." A full grin now. His sense of humor is so simple, and such a delight to see when it means that he's truly comfortable. "I can fix it--"

"Ah ah ah! Leave it to me."

When she kisses him, the soft exhale she feels from him tells her he's laughing. Amusement turns to earnestness as their lips hold for longer and his tongue starts to explore, with him pulling back only once she's peeled his shirt up his chest. By that time his pupils have started to widen, dark arousal pushing back the irises' mako glow as he cooperatively lifts his arms for his shirt to be pulled off.

Even with his help, though, there's a moment they get tangled up: his fault, she'd say, for wearing turtlenecks with collars that want to get stuck over his head and wild hair. The pouting is audible by the time she frees him and flings the garment aside. Her giggles probably aren't helping. But pressing close to him and bringing her lips to his neck to nibble, tease, and lick reassures him of how much she wants him, silly moments and all. He slides back into action with his hands running down her back to cup her ass; he squeezes, and she's just managed to open his pants and start to lower them before being lifted into the air with his hungry kisses trailing a path from the crook of her neck to her breast. There he lingers and takes his time, and she knows he's enjoying much too much how he can make her groan. Knows she's not discouraging him, either, wrapping her legs around his waist and sliding one arm behind the back of his head to hold him close. Even if he's being a bit of a show-off, not even giving her a wall to brace herself against because he could carry two of her with ease... well, she's not opposed to a bit of showing off when it feels this good. It's obviously making him feel better. She can feel him hardening against her, muscles throughout his body drawing taut in anticipation. It's strange how she feels more attuned to his quickened breath than her own, hears him and his pulse as she would hear the Planet's, but then she reasons, it's not so odd at all. He's her core, something she decided when--

Her back stiffens; her hand slips off his head. Blue eyes glance up at her through a muss of blond hair. The question he's about to ask is so obvious that she doesn't wait to hear it, cutting him off with a kiss.

Is she okay? Yes...yes, of course. As long as he doesn't remember. But he's going to, because every night he does. He'll remember: Sephiroth doesn't miss, and she doesn't live.

Every night he dreams he's saved her. Every night he dreams he was faster, stronger, more clever than anyone has a right to be. She knows he did everything he could.

He dreams of having done more.

She breaks the kiss, turning her lips to his ear with an urgency that startles him. She can feel his surprise and talks quickly, before alarm can make him remember the worst. He's learned to remember bad things more quickly than good ones. "I love you."

"I--" His voice and actions both stutter. Of feelings given freely, he's learned how to respond to vitriol more smoothly than love.

"You don't have to answer. I just need you to know. Cloud, I love you. That never changed. It's all right."

She's pleaded with him like this on some earlier nights. She remembers now. She can't tell if it helps, though; it's always the same once he remembers.

There's tension seizing up his muscles as he looks at her with confusion, obviously wondering what the matter is. She sees the moment he realizes their meeting here is all a lie, his eyes now darkened with horror, and then she sees nothing. Her weight sags forward against him, and her legs slip from where they were twined around his waist until her feet dangle limply on each side of him, toes pointed straight to the dark carpet. She can't move; a corpse shouldn't. But she's allowed to feel all the dead weight of her body, because he remembers carrying it to the lake so clearly.

She tastes bile in the back of a throat that can't swallow it down, and it's hard to tell if it's a memory from when she was dying, or a fresh disgust at being made into such a precious burden. Death was not the end. She could help him even now, if only he would believe in her.

But he never did learn to trust love. Even now, something like a sob is choking in his throat, the sound tight with anger and self-disgust at the fantasy he's been allowed to have. No longer a tender moment, all it appears in his eyes is selfish perversion. He doesn't trust that she really would have given him this much trust or intimacy. And he'll wake up and not believe that Tifa should give him the love she does. He already is waking up, his distress shredding through the vestiges of the dream as it jolts his body into panicked awareness.

She wants so badly to just lift her hand to his cheek, soothe him, make him stop hurting himself over this sick guilt trap. There's no reason why she shouldn't be able to when they're connected. Except that to him, she's dead because of him, and that eclipses every other aspect of her. She isn't loving, isn't giving, isn't wanting, isn't kind. She's just dead.

The bitterness is too strong. When she finally lets go of their connection, to not see any more of the pain she can't relieve, she can hear Sephiroth's laughter, though faint as if from a great distance. Because she fell for the initial illusion just as badly as Cloud, yet again.

Sephiroth knows, after all. As there are things he wants to shatter with his own hands, there are still things she yearns to do with her own. Reassurances to give. Pleasures to share.

The hard truth she has to contemplate, once more apart from her love, is that if she is going to help him, she will need to give those desires up.

***

Baaaasically I had a lot of fun with the intro and idea but actually detailing how it falls apart was kind of like mmnnnn how to make it clear but concise

Comments

Re: my ramble is wore than yours right now XD

[sanctum_c]

Oh wow - that is definitely a quote for Clerith turned hurtful; and that feeds into Cloud's mindset so easily with all the maybe's/if he could just turn back time and try that moment again, but do *this* everything would have turned out so differently. But it can't happen and reality is otherwise... The original idea for the fic does sound really interesting as a different concept; Cloud thinking of the different possibilities; Cloud shaking off Sephiroth's control and pushing Aerith out the way, deflecting the Masamune as Sephiroth swoops down, casting some variety of blocking spell on Aerith, breaking from reality and preventing Sephiroth entering the altar or attacking him before he can make a move... And yeah, Sephiroth is definitely nudging things to keep him turning that movement over and over in his head (and I can see him turning further and further back to give himself more options; like defying Sephiroth at the Temple so Aerith doesn't go off alone either (and to eliminate his attacking her), or hanging onto the keystone at the Gold Saucer to prevent the date being disrupted...)

I had forgotten those aspects of Lifestream Black/White; and I like that suggestion that Aerith wants Cloud to know her if he does see her again (which partially explains not seeing her in the Advent Children - though it always breaks down for me somewhat as Cloud clearly sees her during the Bahamut fight/Avalanche throw/limit break even if the audience doesn't). But I really like the idea of Aerith missing being alive - and that feels much more in keeping with her character - and I have to agree with the being physical/tactile (its one of those elements where Crisis Core does ring so falsely for me - how little Zack and Aerith touch, how Aerith is kind of portrayed as distant and not easily touchable - which I think was an inadvertent carry over from Advent Children - which should have been caught and stopped since it makes sense in AC but not CC). So yeah, there is definitely a sense of wanting a physical body again (the exploration of her body at the very start, and also part of her wanting to undress Cloud as it's simply more contact, more sensory feedback, more ways for her to use her regained from).

Cloud granting Sephiroth more agency... I admittedly didn't see it in quite that way, but I can see it with Aerith trying to assure/distract Cloud and its sadly just not working. Very clear that she doesn't blame him given his life, and the sense of frustration came through pretty clearly as what was a lovely, intimate moment is disrupted/that he's convinced himself given what happened she wouldn't want him like that.

Admittedly some of your other FFVII fics are darker (the one where Cloud is indeed a fake and Aerith's attempted suicide for example), but I really bought into the fic as a lemon with the way it was presented. Possibly its also because I know you do have a fondness for AUs/are going to take the opportunity to divert away from that particular piece of OG canon if able, so the scar wasn't a red flag to me as I took it as the moment still happened just slightly differently (somewhat akin to "The One Who Didn't Die") - Aerith was wounded but not fatally by Sephiroth and this moment is somewhere post-game. So it was growing horror for me in-sync with Cloud as it becomes clear that this isn't real and that everything is as I remembered it and thus could not end well.

(actually as well, the scar was making me think of Anthy; it's not in the right place admittedly/any Utena similarities start and end there)

There is definitely a risk at freaking out someone in the Clerith tag if you'd don't warn about the dark nature... though I would also be tempted to risk it - it would have been less effective had I known upfront it was going to turn macabre/while the scar might be more of a red flag to others, in my head I explained it away, so some might be as surprised as I was, while others might pick up on the scar and brace for unpleasantness.

It seems unfortunate that I can also see people getting mad for discussing those troubling post-game Cloud/Aerith stuff/implying Cloud recognising Tifa's love for him... though I'd concur again that again I'd be tempted to risk it all the same. It is quite definitely not a Cloti fic - as you say there is no detail on how that situation stands/would develop - and it would be remiss to not explore how the dream mindset affects day-time events/how Cloud would wind up thinking he doesn't deserve any happiness. But yes, I can see some people being unhappy with the implications - but I already think tag use is way too dictated by certain individuals, and this fic is clearly Clerith even if its ultimately not a happy situation.

On that note; little bit ticked off with one of AB's recent posts - someone asked why she objected to the tags on a post about Cloud loving Aerith in FFVII and then moving on afterward to Tifa. She insists that the post should not be tagged as both Clerith and Cloti (which I would disagree with since it makes sense to tag like that if the post is about both relationships at different times) but rather Clerifa. It is extremely reminiscent of a response SA made last year to much the same situation. And I really want to reply and disagree; her mindset typically seems to be she is reading the Clerith tag and doesn't want to see any Cloti - but surely if the Clerifa population was bigger they would reply that when they look at *that* tag they want to see Cloud/Aerith/Tifa; if they wanted to see Clerith they'd look in the tag, if they wanted to see Cloti they'd look in the tag, if they wanted to see Aerti they'd look in the tag, if they want to see Clerifa they look in that tag. Genuine Clerifa is rare enough that throwing multi-pairing posts into the tag is just going to up the noise for that relationship, and so if it pertains to both pairings (and isn't trashing one at the expense of the other), it makes sense to tag with both. But I really don't get this one though; it's not hate-tagging, its expressing a view of Cloud's relationships which are admittedly at odds with AB/most Clerith's. But is that now the standard? People have agreed not to tag hate, but it's a problem to express a view opposed to the majority in one tag (that Cloud can move on from Aerith) or express something positive about two mutually exclusive relationships at two differing points? Regardless I can see that degenerating into a tag fight which sounds no fun at all.

I would definitely say the fic did work for me! ...but yeah unfortunately that this situation occurred because of Sephiroth didn't really come across - I was reading it like he was a voyeur on the situation, willing to let Aerith try to have this moment to make it worse before either reminding Cloud or counting on his mindset to ruin everything. I did indeed think that this was something Aerith was setting up - though it would be more chilling/more pessimistic/horrible with the stronger sense that Sephiroth is doing this to torment them both like that (and that they have both bought into the lure like that). It is possible someone else would interpret this differently... I do like the ambiguity of it, and now you've mentioned the intent, I can see Sephiroth as more of the master manipulator in all this. I think the major factor in making me think that Aerith was the cause was it read to me like she was never in doubt about the truth, but was intentionally deluding herself/denying it as she knew how Cloud would react. If it sounded more like she really believed the illusion, that Cloud got there in-time, and she remembers what really happened at the same time he does and then frantically tries to divert Cloud's train of thought, that would feel more like Sephiroth was in control. That said, I do still think this works very well as is/the ambiguity/different possible reads is good.

Ah! Not to worry - there are certain other grammar differences ("spits" for both present and past tense (whereas we have "spits" and "spat") off the top of my head. It does seem crazy that we can have that distinction but read is both present and past tense) I know of, so I wasn't sure if plead was a similar situation. If it helps I did try to read it as "pled" (as I know I do weird things with spelling and grammar at times) to see if that worked!

[raaj]

Yeah, I can definitely see Cloud going back further and further in the possibilities, back even to varieties where he remembers who he is sooner/never forgot and could both prevent Sephiroth taking control of him and spare Aerith the pain of the confusion with his superficial resemblance to Zack...

how Aerith is kind of portrayed as distant and not easily touchable

Yeah, for me Aerith does have a certain kind of distance, but it's the sort where you think you know her and then, at some point, realize she's not saying certain things... there was a Doctor Who quote for something like this, where Donna points out that the Doctor talks and talks but doesn't say anything. And it's pretty much like that, where Aerith will talk and talk but not tell you about herself. Her being distant on a more surface level is vaguely disappointing. Especially since I still do headcanon that part of the reason she's charming and outgoing immediately after emerging from the lab, as Elmyra tells, is because that was her way of fishing for attention from researchers--so she'd have people she could talk to and not feel so alone, even if they weren't people she could trust. So to me it just seems like once Aerith decides she wants someone's attention she'd be right up there, charming away, and physical standoffishness is kind of...eh. (I suppose it still fits when you consider Zack is Shinra and that's probably causing her mixed thoughts? But that really shouldn't have been a factor later in the relationship, or if it WAS that really should have been addressed. ...So yeah overall Crisis Core Aerith is always a "hrm" for me. It's like she's been knocked down in confidence with social interaction from her younger self without a real explanation for why.)

But haha yeah the exploration of her body was definitely about her wanting her body. And of course she is going to be take charge with Cloud. :D

...oh man it's now been too long since I watched Utena. Anthy had a scar from the swords? But yeah, warning for the nature of it would likely blunt it... Part of why I'd want to just go ahead and risk it. (I suppose I should warn for "mature themes" though at least, because that does double-cover the sexuality and morbidity. I got pissed off at tumblr when I discovered actually tagging "nsfw" causes the entry to be excluded from tag searches (I'd tagged for the picture of Aerith drawing on Cloud, just to realize I couldn't find it in the Clerith tag and then immediately realize it popped up if I removed the "nsfw" tag).)

Yeah, I do remember thinking in the most recent kerfluffle that tag use was getting... a little too dictated. What's kind of funny is that I pretty much ended up thinking the post shouldn't have been tagged clerith, but not for the reasons AB had been saying and not as something I'd actually take OP to task for. It's like... I do think that saying "Cloud loved Aerith but moved onto Tifa" isn't always "Clerith". If Cloud loving Aerith is treated as a background thing, done and over with, then that's really like saying a Clerith piece is also Zerith just because Aerith thinks a tiny bit about her relationship with Zack (but Clerith is the main point of the piece and Zerith is heavily overshadowed). I might be misremembering the post AB was complaining about/thinking of a different one! But it seemed like the main thrust of it was taking Cleriths to task for not allowing for Cloti as well so the Clerith tag seemed less like "it's about Clerith" and more about "I'm going to make people looking for Clerith see this". That gets into intent though, which I could have simply misread, so I wouldn't get grumpy at OP for it (honestly my scroll button is my best friend on tumblr). But if a piece starts with Clerith and stays canon with Aerith dying and goes onto Cloud loving Tifa and treats both pairings respectfully, that Cloud loves Tifa and loves the time he was able to have with Aerith, then yes, that's Clerith & Cloti, not Clerifa, and shouldn't go in that last tag. I can see wibble room for Cloti + Clerith = Clerifa IF it was a set up where Cloud loves both Aerith and Tifa and the women don't love each other but are willing to work out where they can both be with Cloud, because that's still a dynamic between all three of them even if it's not romantic between the girls, but that's not what's going on with "Cloud loved Aerith but she died and he moved onto Tifa"--the girls pretty much have no valid input in the other romance going on (Aerith is kind of dead and would be selfish to demand Cloud never move on, Tifa would be seen as extraordinarily petty and insecure to be jealous over Cloud's connection to Aerith) so they're separate dynamics.

And I can kind of see the "it's annoying to see Cloti when I'm in the Clerith tag" thing because hey, I occasionally wish I could block Cloti to not have to see it when I just want Clerith (especially since, lbr, if someone tags a post both Clerith and Cloti it's usually ltd stuff yet again). I also occasionally wish I could block anti-Cloti to not have to see that when I just want Clerith. But that's really more a thing with tumblr mechanics not allowing search exclusions unless you have browser extensions. Sometimes there IS posting etiquette involved I think so much ltd annoyance would be resolved if people would either just message or block the people who are behaving badly, not think OH I HAVE TO BROADCAST MY MINI-ESSAY OPINION TO EVERY PERSON LOOKING FOR CLERITH/CLOTI/ONE OF THE THREE CHARACTERS!!! buuuuut that's still not precisely a "this tag is only for this" deal. Cloti & Clerith =/= Clerifa, it's just Cloti & Clerith. Unless they're all living together in a polygamy setup, then I'll consider it.

it's a problem to express a view opposed to the majority in one tag

Sometimes I reallllllly hope they're not the majority. Just very very vocal. But yeah, it is...eh. Simply "Cloud is capable of having a fulfilling romantic relationship after losing Aerith" isn't anti-Clerith. Especially since he can still love Aerith. Peeeeople.

So yeah, if this gets posted on tumblr, it's getting posted as Clerith, 'cause that's what it is. XD Miiight fiddle a bit with describing how Aerith buys into /falls out of the delusion, because she is really supposed to have believed it (though, at the same time I can see how it came off as her willingly fooling herself--the "she's here" repetition was supposed to be her suspecting something isn't right for a moment but not chasing down that morbid thought, but I guess could also come off as her willingly reaffirming the illusion so she can enjoy it as long as possible). Otherwise though I think it pretty much works as is!

[sanctum_c]

I like that contrast between Aerith and the Doctor like that, and I can definitely see that with Aerith's description as a chatter box and talking a lot but not saying anything. And that works well with how carefully she will avoid certain subjects - and critically will talk less when she does touch on those subjects (things like the stop in the play-park before Wall Market, or on the date). The surface distancing is disappointing - and I like (and accept) that headcanon for why Aerith is so keen to talk/will talk to people so easily - never shy in the slightest, and that once she has decided she wanted attention she's never going to keep a distance/going to find reasons for physical contact. It does admittedly kind of fit initially in Crisis Core with Zack's connection back to Shinra like that, but I do very much agree that while that would be plausible at the start, by the end it should have been addressed or they shouldn't have had as much physical distancing as they did.

Definitely agree that CC Aerith has been knocked down in confidence for social interactions for no explanation. I have seen various justifications for it, though none of which I really like since they require Aerith to have that confidence at age 7, lose it around age 15 and then regain it again somewhere between 17 and 22 (or in some cases just sideline that she was ever different/attribute her FFVII character to derived personality traits from Zack. Which always gives me pause; I know strictly chronologically this seems fine to those who take it, but I can't ignore that the inverse is actually true in terms of when the games were written/developed: Zack's character is based on Aerith's). Danseru suggested this was just a change in personality as she grew up and that she changed in her attitude towards boys - which might be part of an explanation. But it still feels odd that it's apparently fine to have Aerith shift so vastly in social interactions over that time-frame, while Tifa (and indeed Yuffie with CC)
is a lot more consistent the entire way through/there isn't a middle point where she seems so distinctly different to her childhood/adult character. Though it really does seem that the annoyances of CC only affect a minority amount of the fandom as everyone else is very eager to take CC over FFVII if it conflicts (/its that same effect again of somehow Aerith's character evades everyone/they see her as a typical martyr figure rather then how she actually acted).

Admittedly on the Utena connection, I think the scar is only ever implied in the series (I'm not sure if this is some head-canon I adopted or it has been stated somewhere, but I keep thinking of it as the point the Sword of Dios emerges though I don't think it's every shown), but in the film it's presented in a surreal way when Anthy and Utena are sketching each other in art class - Anthy is seen in sillhouette but rather then simply a scar (the director in the commentary said felt too much like a cliche), its implied to be an impossible hole that extends right through her body. Definitely agree you should risk it, and I think mature themes coverss the fic sufficiently without tipping your hand. Ack! Yeah I remember reading that tagging something as nsfw made things harder to find (feels best to put "nsfw" in the body of the post and hide everything under a read more).

I have to admit I never did see the orignal post that prompted the complaint, but while I can appreciate that seeing something tagged wrongly is a nuisance, there's a real sense of possessiveness over some of the tags. And I can see that argument about Cloud moving on isn't necessarily Clerith/could also encompass Zerith. I do agree that on numerous occasions its tagged as both to ensure the Clerith people to see it (and vice-versa on occasion with Cloti), but I have seen at least one poster who seemed to genuinely seemed to think it applied to both told to remove it from the Clerith tag and reassign to Clerifa... And yeah; scrolling is a god send at times - it feels a better response then blocking/complaining. Glad at least my reading of tagging does make sense and conditions for doing that; and yeah, I think I would agree on that instance of Cloud loving both Aerith and Tifa but not them loving each other would also fall under the Clerifa tag as that is another variant form of polyamory and makes sense (actually that would be an interesting other dynamic to explore (at the same time it might feel a bit odd to avoid the OT3). As usual the only instance I can think of that I've seen is 'Deus ex Jenova' again which started out with them in that relationship and then shifted so Aerith and Tifa were also in love).

Heh - yeah I can see the annoying to see the other pairing in the other tag as well - and annoyingly, it does indeed so often turn out to be ltd stuff again. Oh, blocking the anti-Cloti stuff would be good too - and yeah shame that basically its a browser add-on that lets you do all these things rather then Tumblr itself (though it does depend on the poster taking the time to put those tags in). Haha - I made a similar comment to Danseru once that so much LTD stuff could be resolved if everyone just stopped talking about it (/stopped caring about what was canon) - as its basically not possible to end it at this stage - no matter what SE might do. Plus as you say, so much could be avoided with just messaging or blocking the people(or ignoring anon messages) they've taken exception to/not re-stating personal opinion in all of the character/pairing tags or complaining about people posting about the LTD in all three tags and so on.

Oh, right with you there; really hope they're not the majority and are instead just the most vocal. And I quite agree that Cloud able to have a romantic relationship with someone else after Aerith is in no way anti-Clerith - as he can still love Aerith. It just feels like the idea that Cloud will never move on has gained such a traction and popularity that going against it makes people angry for no good reason. Is it more to do with that ship versus any other? Most other ships I can think of off the top of my head are (excepting other post-release additions, and even then I don't think it often splits a couple up permanently) more or less assumed to persist indefinitely after the couple get together, while without making Cloud perpetually depressed (ignoring AC) or taking the (to me admittedly) less likely interpretation of the end of AC, Clerith is very time-limited. So the rejection of post-Clerith relationships for Cloud is to make it indefinite? Kinda rambling here.

Hehe - indeed! post it as Clerith as it unambiguously is about their relationship! It feels like it would work both ways with the fiddle but yes, it pretty much works as is!

[raaj]

(or in some cases just sideline that she was ever different/attribute her FFVII character to derived personality traits from Zack. Which always gives me pause; I know strictly chronologically this seems fine to those who take it, but I can't ignore that the inverse is actually true in terms of when the games were written/developed: Zack's character is based on Aerith's)

Preach it. And it really is annoying that every other character, not just the girls, are pretty much how you'd expect them to have been at that point of time from what we see of their past in the game. (While Cloud's contrariness/temper got pushed more into BC, this isn't out of line with what we saw of the flashbacks to Nibelheim; the trooper who has to be really Cloud is pretty okay with going along with Zack in silly things like 'practicing victory moves' and only scolds Zack when he thinks Zack would get in trouble. Zack being his first friend too, and how he's shown to be a little bit of a pushover at times with AVALANCHE, it really does make sense even if it sort of stunk not to see more of the "stubborn pain in the butt" side until BC.) So...why is Aerith the only one different, and why is that not worth explaining? Writers were being lazy. e_e

Ah, I do vaguely remember the surreal moment in the Utena film. That headcanon/possible word of god of her having a scar where the sword of Dios emerges also makes sense.

Definitely not disagreeing that there's possessiveness/defensiveness going on with the tagging lectures.

I can see how doing simultaneous Cloud/Aerith & Cloud/Tifa could feel weird because in fandom the OT3 is the most popular way of resolving the triangle happily for everyone; all the same the different form of polyamory could still be very happy for them. (Admittedly, I do tend to view the major difference between the two situations as whether Aerith and Tifa have a sexual desire for each other, and I have had to wonder at times if I'm oversimplifying the threesome situation as a result.)

I kind of disagree on your comparison of Cloud/Aerith versus other pairings in the fandom--Cloud/Sephiroth and Cloud/Zack also have a very real tendency to not allow Cloud to move on (that Cloud cannot move on from having had to kill Sephiroth is in fact how one of the time travel fics where Cloud changes Sephiroth's future enough to save him opens, I do remember that). The common link between all these IS separation by death so yeah, I think it's an intersection of "one true love" and "love after death"; his true love has died and he will never find anyone who compares. If you said Cloud would break up with Tifa permanently and never ever go back to her again/never get with her in the first place it upsets Cloti fans too. It's just a loyalty thing in fiction where realism can be ignored or even just viewed differently (some Clerith fans have lost a loved one and don't plan on/aren't interested in falling in love with someone else afterward, so for them it makes perfect sense for Cloud to be the same way); it'd just be nice for people to realize that while that is one way to show loyalty, and I actually have no complaints about that trope if Cloud is living a satisfying life and not tormenting himself over the loss (...Cloud/Sephiroth pretty much fails this test every single time, but Cloud/Zack and Cloud/Aerith do allow more for "Cloud is single and misses them at times but is happy with how he is now and thinks they would be proud of him"), it's not a matter of disloyalty for Cloud to have fallen in love with someone else, there's no need to get upset about it because Cloud can still love the one he died.

[sanctum_c]

Ah, quite so! No one else's character got treated like Aerith in the Compilation (from what I remember anyway). And I totally agree its the writers being lazy/they wanted Aerith to be a certain way in Crisis Core and like Advent Children with Cloud (until Case of Tifa as Nomura was pretty flippant about breaking Cloud's character in the Reunion Files), just went with it without justifying. Mentioning BC does underline again that outside of the additional Turks/the former Avalanche, what the game was doing with the characters was much more in keeping with FFVII than the later Compilation entries (it feels like they were nervous about changing anything too much for AC or BC, but after that they started happily ret-conning). I think I might need to replay CC again, but in my head, the BC!Cloud feels righter than CC!Cloud for many of his appearances - and yeah while the contrariness and temper was pushed more in that game, it did fit for him.

Fair point that having the polyamory be two shared relationships isn't going to be as easy to accept - but as you said, its just a different form and doesn't have to impact on anything as long as they're all happy with the arrangement. I was thinking that that was also the major difference; sexual attraction between Aerith and Tifa - by worrying about oversimplifying the polyamory, did you mean that they might still be attracted to each other in the relationship but not act on it, or its non-reciprocal (and I have to admit my immediate thought for that scenario is it's Aerith is attracted to both)?

Heh - that kind of highlighted my ignorance of certain fics! I haven't read many Cloud/Sephiroth or Cloud/Zack fics to date, so I didn't know not moving on was a thing for other couples. And true, I know all the Cloti fans would be upset at Cloud and Tifa later breaking up (though I do keep running across the situation in fanfics). And very true, some fans have been through similar circumstances/aren't planning on moving on/easy to apply that to Cloud. But yes, nice for everyone to accept that not moving on is one way to show loyalty, but there are others - and I would also agree that if Cloud is living a satisfying life/not tormenting himself for evermore I have no objections to him not moving on either - just not sure I've run into an instance of that yet... oh; well actually, I think 'The Fifth Act' is effectively like that in the end.

But yeah, moving on isn't disloyalty in the slightest.

[raaj]

Well, BC did have its own weird wtf retcons too--Barret's story, Nanaki's story, and I'm pretty sure BC's version of Nibelheim was also "Sephiroth jumped in" rather than the real "Cloud threw him in". (Could possibly be justified if the Turk had had a poor vantage point and was disbelieving that an injured trooper could have possibly done what Cloud did, but still... a person jumping looks considerably different from one being thrown). So I'm not sure I'd really say they were more faithful so much as they had a different rationale behind the characterization choices they made. And BC/CC Cloud for me is really more "different situations highlighting different parts of the same personality" than either one of them being particularly OOC. We don't know what trooper Cloud thought of the Turks in general but as an adult he doesn't have a particularly high view of them even though they were in no way that he's aware of involved with Nibelheim, it's possible he had similar suspicions as a trooper that not all of their work was on the up-and-up. Crisis Core being from Zack's perspective and BC being from the player Turk, and each POV being the only person he's really shown interacting with in each game, it's pretty much Cloud's behavior around someone he idolizes who immediately extends to him the friendship he's never had versus Cloud's behavior around someone he doesn't respect (yet) and is getting in the way of what he's determined is the right thing to do. Which, also, might explain why BC's take of Cloud feels more "right" even if I don't think there's anything particularly wrong about CC Cloud: we do see Cloud at other points of his life butting heads with people and slowly building past antagonism to build a friendship (hi Barret). But the way his life's gone, he's never had and will probably never have again circumstances like he did with meeting Zack where he would immediately be amazed by someone just by what they've done; he's been very heavily disillusioned of the idea that a person would be amazing simply because what they do seems amazing. We see a little bit of how fanboyish Cloud might have been when he's getting into some of his descriptions of his false friendship with Sephiroth, but Cloud with Zack is the only friendship where that actually happened and so CC is really the only chance we ever have to see Cloud in that light. BC's circumstances are repeatable, CC's are not.

(At the same time I might be glossing over if CC did something particularly egregious... but I really do think a lot of this might be that Cloud is never going to go right off the bat "YOU ARE AMAZING HOW DO I BE LIKE YOU" ever again. He will save his doting for people who are already friends.)

...So I guess to go one step further, even if neither entry is wrong, BC is way more useful for characterizing Cloud in general because Zack was sort of a rare event. So someone extrapolating Cloud's personality from just CC is more likely to go wrong in my eyes than someone extrapolating from just BC. CC could have fixed this with minor scenes showing Cloud interacting more with other people without Zack around, but at the same time Cloud really wasn't meant to be the focus. ...I'm way too nitpicky and this is why I haven't responded to someone else on tumblr yet because at some point I just go "NO IF I SIT DOWN TO ANSWER THIS I'LL BE PICKING THIS APART FOR HOURS" lol. Moving on!

by worrying about oversimplifying the polyamory, did you mean that they might still be attracted to each other in the relationship but not act on it, or its non-reciprocal (and I have to admit my immediate thought for that scenario is it's Aerith is attracted to both)?

No, no, when I said "oversimplifying the threesome", by threesome I meant the OT3, not simultaneous Cloti/Clerith. Just, while thinking about things from Sleeping Arrangements, I sometimes wonder if I'm going to make Aerith and Tifa come off more as really good friends with benefits rather than a real, mutual romance? (Especially since it takes Aerith longer to realize) Which isn't my intention, but I know they're not going about things conventionally, so then I just get stuck on thinking about the difference between those two things. Although it did occur to me later on that they are committed to and passionate about the relationship itself, not just each other; they're not going to go on/off like friends with benefits might.

[sanctum_c]

Ack! Yeah, I do keep forgetting that BC is also responsible for several retcons I really objected to - especially Nanaki (the scenario AND Deneh) and Barret's involvement. And oop, yeah I rather forgot that BC's version of Sephiroth's defeat would tally closest with Last Order's like that - and as much as their is a justification, you're right, the two situations would not be mistakable. Hehe - I think in the end I'm much too quick to reject or defend parts of the Compilation as you raise some really good points about how differently Cloud is presented and crucially why - especially with how he would act in CC given its always in proximity to Zack like that. That and I should try and watch more of BC again.

And yes; its very difficult to ever see Cloud look up to someone in that way again, and would likely just dote on the people who are already his friends. But I would agree; extrapolating Cloud's personality purely from CC is more likely going to wind up at odds with FFVII versus the BC version which is closer to how he's introduced in FFVII. And its a fair point that the short-coming could have been fixed but would have been odd given the game's focus on Zack.

Being nit-picky is good! I think I'd much rather get things right and consistent than gloss over the troublesome bits (though admittedly this can mean rejecting certain things as they no longer fit...)

Ah! Completely misunderstood the OT3 worry - apologies. I think, yeah, when they are committed and passionate about the relationship between the three of them/don't just hook up on occasion it is going to feel like a real mutual romance. And in that way I think the slow build helps more as if they got together too early it might seem more like they're really good friends with benefits. Though, if it helps, I think the Gold Saucer basically seals how Tifa is feeling towards Aerith in that chapter - personally I was in no doubt that it was definitely romantic in her thoughts and actions.

[raaj]

Well, even nitpickers can be inconsistent: I tend to forget at some point what I've already picked apart at some point and then there's the chance that I'll run with it without remembering again why it doesn't work XD But. I do try conistency.

Ah, yeah, Tifa's feelings for Aerith are definitely better at coming off romantic! It's more Aerith I was worried about, but... fff I really just need to get writing it again (I said, for the thousandth time... I've got like two half-written things of Cosmo Canyon here lmfao)

[sanctum_c]

Ah, yeah I can see Aerith being more of a worry. It might be because I know more of the overall plan that the brief glimpse of their interactions at the Gold Saucer say romantic to me (and indeed Costa del Sol feels like it hints as well); just how concerned Aerith is over Tifa despite everything else that happened that evening. It feels a bit like a sticking point, as I can kind of see how it might seem like Aerith isn't coming across as intense as Tifa because she does choose to take Cloud on the date, and it kind of feels like a situation similar to the HDM fusion fic would be better where the three of them go out together, though that breaks canon and you are being very careful not to diverge prior to the City of the Ancients. Unhelpfully (sorry), a lot hinges on just how the Cosmo Canyon chapter runs, and if it's made clear there how her feelings are.