"What of Eurydice?"

[raaj]

The memory of Anthy out of reach, outside of Utena's ability to help, dangling in the air as her body was pierced by countless swords, is still fresh in mind. Months have passed, and Utena keeps putting one foot forward, but her heart and mind are stretching out to cover a distant expanse.

She doesn't know where Anthy is. Still the Rose Bride? Still the sacrifice? So pierced by hate that she thinks she has to be another person's tool?

Utena is not afraid of the world, and she makes certain to stay in it, in this new school. She wants for Anthy to be able to find know this world isn't one to be afraid of because she can meet her in it.

But, in the end, Anthy had slipped away--no. She had LET Anthy slip away. Why should the other girl trust her as a prince, then? As a protector? She'd tried so hard, and yet not been quite enough.

Her mind turns in circles until it has done a full rotation, pointing back to where it came from, and Utena finds herself staring down a transfer form to request acceptance to Ohtori Academy.

Going back means more duels, if the revolution is still being sought after. It means more pain, if Anthy continue to be the Rose Bride. --But of course it means more pain, because Anthy suffers every moment she is the Rose Bride.

Utena sits down with the transfer form and steadily, aching, fills it out, every moment remembering the pain of those million swords. Her penmanship is as smooth as her finest swordstroke. Her teachers likely would have been surprised to see it.

She wonders if Akio will kill her, should she go back, but maybe he'll try to seduce her first. More likely, her request will be denied outright and she'll have to live with the regret of having failed Anthy.

What Utena wasn't expecting was for the secretary's desk to suddenly be vacated, the chair swinging just slightly. How could that be? She'd never heard the secretary leave.

"Utena."

Her head snaps up in shock--and she almost turns around, but then reminds herself she shouldn't be so surprised. Of course Anthy might be here. This office itself was connected to Ohtori Academy. But to be discovered like this, for Anthy to be here like this...Utena could not be sure what to expect. Was Anthy here under Akio's direction? She had to be. Why would she be here otherwise? Then whatever she said, Utena could not take it to heart. For both their sakes. This is the beginning of another round.

She keeps her head pointed away, trying to find her composure. "Long time no see, Himemiya. Have you been all right?"

"Mm. But you don't seem so well, Utena."

"Really? I'm just put out that that secretary's disappeared to who-knows-where..."

"Perhaps she had somewhere to be."

Utena knew enough now to consider the possibility of Anthy giving the woman somewhere to be.

"Have you heard the legend of Eurydice?"

"Eurydice?" Leave it to Anthy to ask a strange question. Eurydice is a strange name, too. "I can't say I have..."

"I suppose her husband is the better known one. A gentle player of the lyre, Orpheus," and this foreign name Utena does vaguely recognize as it comes curled from Anthy's lips. "The poor man ventured down into the underworld to retrieve her. His touch on the string, keen with grief, was such that he lulled the hound of Hades to sleep, and the god himself was moved by the song. He agreed to Orpheus' request to let his wife return to the realm of the living, on one condition. She would follow behind him, and he must never look back at her, until they were both fully within the lands of the living again.

"Of course, the story is a tragedy."

Her fingers twitch, or her hands loosen; she's not sure exactly how she moved, but the form has fallen through her hands to the floor. Utena doesn't move, doesn't bend to pick them up. She can't. Doing so might chance a look back at Anthy, only to see nothing but a shed skin of fabric left behind by its vanished owner. Except--that's too simple. It can't be her task is as simple as not looking at Anthy, whose words have reassured her so far that she is here.

...Here, in the transfer offices. Utena's heart grows cold at the thought. Perhaps this has been a test all along, and she has already failed, looking back to the school with doubt that Anthy had emerged from her coffin.

"Anthy...don't tell me..."

"Utena." A hand snakes onto her arm, and Utena startles in surprise, but still she forces herself to not turn around; some part of her still grasps to the hope that she can salvage a chance by not looking back physically. "This tale is always told from Orpheus' point of view. But what of his wife? What of Eurydice?"

Anthy's arm turns to catch Utena under the shoulder, pinning her ever so lightly into place. She has to fight not to tense, not to turn around. She doesn't mean to let her throat tighten either, but it happens too quickly for her to stop. It feels like a trap she doesn't want to escape.

"What of Eurydice?" Anthy asks again, her tone smooth and deep.

"She was let down," Utena answers. "He didn't save her. She followed him all that way... I'm sure she had many hopes. But he couldn't be her prince. Wouldn't she hate him for it?" Do you hate me, that I couldn't be yours?

It sounds like dread confirmation when Anthy leans into her shoulder with a small chuckle, and for a split-second Utena expects a blade in her side to drive the point of failure home one last time.

Then there is wetness on her back, and Utena arches in surprise. "Himemiya?" It's a whisper with so little breath behind it. In an instant she whirls around, forgetting the thought of a test, the fear of a blade, only believing that her friend is hurt. She catches herself just as she goes to hug the other girl-- but then she does anyway. If looking back was the test, she's failed. She's failed so many times over. How could she look away from Anthy?

At least for this instant, her friend feels real and substantial. Here with her, and not just the empty cloth of a dress. There is the warmth of skin to feel, the weight of long, thick hair.

"Utena, you would comfort me even now?" Anthy murmurs. "I have been Eurydice. I have waited, waited, waited in my coffin, never truly believing I would be rescued. And I drew you deeper and deeper into an underworld of magic and deceit. But still, even when you knew all the dangers, you came in deeper still to save me. All I had to do to be free was follow you. But I didn't give you the smallest sign that I was behind you, following. So for me, you looked back into a nightmare once more." She lifts her head up, and her face is one that stuns Utena, as it's so unlike the mild girl who tended the roses: there are tears in her eyes, yet a small smile that is at the same time twisted up, thorned against any retorts that might come her way. She's not wearing her glasses. "I think, Miss Utena, if Eurydice hated anyone, it was herself. For putting someone she loved through a nightmare, and for not making the slightest move to reassure them that the efforts they'd gone through weren't in vain."

"But-- you said it was a tragedy," Utena says. She feels like she's teetering, not knowing how to take Anthy's words. Well, that's one thing that hasn't changed, then. "I-- Orpheus..."

"Utena," Anthy interrupts, and reaches up a hand to her cheek. Belatedly, Utena realizes she's been crying herself. "Did you think you were Orpheus? You bargained with no one."

***

I didn't know how to handle the Utena-sama (or san) / Utena / Miss Utena myself. Miss Utena felt too stiff to do every single time, Utena too casual, honorifics were kind of ech for both mixing languages and because I'm not even 100% sure what would be most appropriate for Anthy, I think I blanked if she used something different at the end.

Then there's the setup in general. To be honest most of this comes from the talk of coffins and me having had Orpheus' legend more on the brain for months and months now thanks to an interesting game called "Don't look back" (which I haven't actually beaten--attempted, but not beaten--but watched a youtube playthrough of). And then the fact that Orpheus legend really IS always looked at from the view of Orpheus, so it seemed kind of fun to flip it around: how did Eurydice feel about what happened?

Plus it seemed weird that it took months and months for Anthy to actually leave. Utena definitely sparked something in her, but maybe it took a while to actually manifest as resolve. ...Which, I can see as if Utena does remember the school and all, that being well enough time for her to become truly convinced she had completely failed Anthy given the tone of her comments after Anthy slipped away and the way she pretty much had a heroic bsod after losing the duel to Touga. So. ...That's how the fic got writ.

Comments

[raaj]

...fff I think I said some things about Galuf myself. >_>;

Would you rec Lost Odyssey?

Hmm... I suppose making the military rather uncaring/evil like that does mean less player guilt for wiping out huge numbers of PSICOM soliders...

And yet they're the same ones who evacuate Cocoon in the end so they're also supposed to be decent guys. :|b (Actually I think all along they're supposed to have some decency, given their protest against extreme orders in Palompolum, which makes the Bodhum Purge/military exemption somewhat odd. I mean, if they genuinely believe it's necessary because anyone in Bodhum could be tainted by Pulse... yeah, there really shouldn't be a military exception. \o_O/)

Don't have too much to say about the other XIII stuff because I pretty much agree with it--including that Snow's attitude should have been very different, believing Serah would die if he didn't help her at her final fight.

Hahah. Direct line descendants would be SO cheesy except for Rufus (I mean it'd be cheesy anyway given how poorly X and VII were meshed together, but it's a natural consequence of that premise that Rufus would be a descendant of the Al Bhed Shinra). And I can just see it being implied that Cloud is also one, or of Tidus/Yuna, or Gippal/Rikku's (actually I see this last one being most likely for Cloud if they DID do something like that--still cheesy though). And Kimahri's race as the ancestors of Nanaki's ...yeah, let's not.

[sanctum_c]

Hehe - you might have said something about Galuf, but I'm not sure it entirely registered as a permanent loss, and when he left to go to his world I thought that was how it worked. Little did I know!

Lost Odyssey... I think I'd rec it. It's been a while since I played it (broken Xbox). It feels like an alternate FF for some of the time I played, sort of like this could have been how the series wound up had Sakaguchi not left. The villain may be one of the least subtle ever incidentally. And I remember a few points of being kinda lost as to where I had to go... That said; the recovered memories are tremendously well written and often very effective - made more impressive as they are just white text on a black background. If you have a chance to investigate I would definitely encourage you. I do still want to get a new console so I can complete it/start from scratch as its been soooo long now. It also nicely allows for selectable audio so you can have Japanese voices and English subtitles (though they're dubtitles and taken entirely from the English voice script). I do worry slightly if the time-lag has rose-tinted the experience somewhat and there was some issues with the concepts/presentation (I do remember some moments of hair-pulling frustration, but then I think I've had those on other RPGs so...). I think the female character's costumes might have been quite suspect at times (after a quick image search: especially one of them)/there might have been a troublesome characterisation, but I really can't remember...

I completely missed that the military was evacuating Cocoon at the end until the novella. And so yeah they were supposed to be vaguely decent, and the protests against the orders in Palopolum. But then... yeah they're willing to deal with that city surgically, but Bodhum must be completely purged. Unless you work at Cafe NORA.

(I will stop saying it eventually, but serious SE! What happened? You have a perfectly good, coherent plot (...outside of the still kinda dubious the fal'Cie can't actually tell the l'Cie what they're meant to do) and because it got segmented across media types the narrative is all kinds of broken and confusing. Really hope XV is going to work on its own).

Haha! True. Actually I think it even was said that Shinra is a direct line ancestor of Rufus. But yeah, cheesier if they try to make the family tree more overt. I think Gippal/Rikku as Cloud's ancestor feels worrying plausible (and Tidus/Yuna for either Tifa or Aeris). But yeah, cheesy and even the vague and seemingly not really thought through connection is bad enough (it feels odd that they felt the need to state that. Zidane has his throw-away reference to Cloud in IX and that didn't niggle. Shinra originally felt like a slightly random nod to everyone's favourite electric company...)

[raaj]

The villain may be one of the least subtle ever incidentally.

...Trying to think what does make a villain subtle. Especially in Final Fantasy. I think Vayne is like the most subtle, and even he's...er.

...Come to think of it FF really has never pulled the "this guy you liked and trusted the whole game is actually the mastermind :D", have they? I mean there's villains who were trusted by characters prior to events (Sephiroth) but in the game they're either really blatant even when they're acting Lawful Good (Seymour) or they just pop out of nowhere or they were obviously evil the whole time. Anyway! I...think I will keep watching Lost Odyssey because I realized it's still at full price on amazon (wow o_o).

but Bodhum must be completely purged. Unless you work at Cafe NORA.

I'm now picturing NORA hatching this plot where like Lebreau is all: yes, yes, we'll come along :( but will you let me serve you some drinks for a few moments? I just want to do this normal thing one last time before having to go down to that hell...!

Pair of soldiers: (...Free booze) Oh, all right.

Lebreau: *slips sleeping pills into the drinks :D*

I mean that still seems like it should cause problems for them when the soldiers don't check in, but I can see it buying them a window through whatever patrol the PSICOM set up. (Not the most plausible route either but it'd be SOMETHING.) And yeah, the narrative as it is is just sort of lacking bits that would really really help!

Tidus/Yuna for either Tifa or Aeris

I have trouble seeing it for either of them, actually. I don't see any resemblance for either in coloring/appearance and if I was linking Yuna to Aerith I'd want to do it through the Cetra (because magic/summoning) when the Spira bloodlines are supposed to be through humanity (....still prefer the original game theories where humanity is an offshoot of Cetra e_e). At any rate it would be pretty cheesy.

it feels odd that they felt the need to state that. Zidane has his throw-away reference to Cloud in IX and that didn't niggle.

Given that X-2 came at a time with AC going and more compilation stuff lined up, I wouldn't be surprised if they were testing the waters/toying with some sort of VII-X project idea; it is interesting that Advent Children's Geostigma was also an idea scrapped from FFX, and with the farplane/pyreflies reflecting memories, the way the pyreflies move about, it always was tempting for me at least to wonder if it was somewhat similar to Lifestream. It's weird because they were probably the two Final Fantasy games I would have most easily been convinced to be linked somehow in a fanfic, it's just the way they did it in X-2 makes me think 'badfic'.

[sanctum_c]

Ah haha. You have a good point. Subtle villains aren't ever really a thing. You're probably right about Vayne - Vaan's reaction and his initial presence implied villainy, and then he kept himself out of way so much he never felt as much of a villain as some of the other ones. And yeah, the games have never gone in for the trusted guy the entire time who then turns on the party. The LO villain is possibly closest to Sephiroth - trusted prior to events, but its done in such a way its kind of insane they trusted this guy for a second (which might admittedly be part of the memory loss, really can't remember) prior to the explicit evil plot (...which I don't remember either. Aside from one or two plot-reveals, if/when I do get to play it, hopefully a great deal of this will be a surprise). And actually; least subtle villain is pretty much Kefka (/the other pre-VI villains. I don't think Zeromus or Ex-Death pretend at not being obviously evil) who was never depicted pre-evil villain stage, was never remotely remorseful or even tried to pretend he reformed (the Emperor did all those parts from what I remember).

...wow that is kinda weird about Lost Odyssey on Amazon (that said I did wander into a shop a few months back and saw XIII-2 on sale for full price still as well, so these things do happen somehow) - especially as when I bought it new it had plummeted in price (about... $7 equivalent I think)

Haha! Oh I like that little scene for Lebreau, and I'll take that as head-canon (/they can steal some military craft to get ahead of the purge train/short-cut across the water or something). Even if it is a little implausible, it is something how they escaped purging (and really how Snow wasn't grabbed after flying Serah to the Vestige in that flashback... and I'm still murky on why the Vestige pulled her inside. Well, maybe if the idea is that the branded l'Cie cannot immediately transform into Ragnarok so needs to be contained and kept safe until the appropriate moment... Otherwise its just Snow's reason for going to the Vestige after getting everyone off the train)

Ah, I was vaguely linking Yuna to Aeris in that suggestion due to magic and summoning as Cetra. Hadn't realised all the bloodlines were Spiran -> human. And yeah, I prefer the original game theory about humanity being an offshoot of the Cetra (and I think the game hints at that as well)! In fact, I'm sure I read somewhere that the idea of the Cetra being alien or travelling between worlds was a translation goof and they were supposed to be an indigenous migratory tribe of the Planet. Certainly if the Spiran descendants are supposed to be humanity on Gaia, then should that make the Cetra natives (the humans as an offshoot of the Cetra helps a lot with the necessary genetic compatibility to allow for Aeris. Two species on two worlds with no connections is just a little too convenient without a convenient progenitor race that seeded the universe)... But yes! Cheesy, and let's hope that's not what that epilogue is going to entail (that should surface fairly quickly I'm imagine).

Ah - that makes more sense if they were testing the waters with the VII-X connection/Geostigma a scrapped idea from X. The recent defence of the link I saw on tumblr made the connection between Kadaj's dissolution at the end of AC with the collapse into pyreflies from X (and Sinnatious ran with that idea for all deaths), and the farplane/reflecting memories do seem very reminiscent (there is also a FFX/VII crossover fic where Auron encounters Aeris after he's been sent (and some years in the future). Haha - yeah definitely a badfic feel to how the games were linked. I'd still be more taken with the connection working the other way around - like Knight of Spira for the most part. Shinra as a descendant of his namesake, the Farplane and the pyreflies being a long-term shift in how the Lifestream functions. And it could still be a different planet if Cid's space program really starts up.

I do remember it used to be very popular for FFVI to be the precursor world to VII (and that before CC specified the play text, I ran across a few cases where Loveless was the VI storyline (...as little sense as that made. That said, I do remain curious about 'Loveless' as everyone remembers that bit of text and seemingly not the slightly smaller text running to one side of it which says 'My Bloody Valentine' - which is a band, who had an album titled 'Loveless'...(really do wonder if Loveless the play was really the idea at the time, or that was an odd reference which has been reworked))), and VII to be before VIII (I think almost entirely due to the Centra continent). I think there is a XIII-VII crossover which put Midgar on Gran Pulse and has Nanaki and Vincent still around.

[raaj]

the Emperor did all those parts from what I remember

I have to admit that because Kefka was mentioned at the start, I spent a minute or two thinking "Well sure, emperor Gestahl pretends he's sorry, but he's not exactly a main villain" before remembering that Emperor Mateus from FF2 has that whole thing where his "heavenly" self acts contrite (that said--that wasn't in the original game, right? I thought that was an additional thing. Or maybe he has another point of acting sorry too.) I'm not sure he could be subtle in terms of the viewers doubting he's villainous but he definitely at least tries the most of any of the villains.

And yeah, I prefer the original game theory about humanity being an offshoot of the Cetra (and I think the game hints at that as well)!

It's what Sephiroth believes when he goes insane. Granted that's off the research in the basement which WAS wrong on one other count (that Jenova was a cetra) but yeah, the fact that Cetra and human can interbreed would seriously suggest that they're related species. If the Spira -> human thing was true, Aerith wouldn't be the first FF character with parents from different worlds (I forget if it's Cecil who's half-Lunarian or if it's his son who would be the half, but either way--and Terra is also half and half but the whole esper thing seems to go beyond genetics (and they were originally from the human world too, iirc)), but still... I just really, really prefer the offshoot theory. And yeah, definitely prefer VII leading to X rather than vice-versa (Knight of Spira was nice that way, even if a few of the VIII-X links themselves were kind of tenuous).

To be honest, if CC hadn't specified the play text, I'd be tempted to take a part of VI as the "Loveless" plot--it'd be the Draco and Maria opera! XD But yeah, VI as a whole doesn't seem quite right for "Loveless" unless you took like a very dismal "what if" at some point ("what if Celes hadn't survived jumping off the cliff and Loveless was a very bleak VI story from her perspective, ending like that...") That said Loveless did seem to be at the time an odd reference that just worked really well with the mood of Midgar and also seemed to tie a bit into Aerith appearing there, if you want to read into it that way ("Loveless" when she meets Cloud, as the long-running idea always was Cloud reminding Aerith of her lost first love).

I've seen a XIII-VII crossover which has Midgar on Gran Pulse, yeah--in addition to Nanaki and Vincent, Cloud was also around (crystallized in mako. stop jumping in Lifestream man.)

[sanctum_c]

Afraid I am no help on FF2 as I know nothing of the story outside of rebels fighting evil empire. Though, I fully intend to play that one after FFV and KH3D. But yeah, Gestahl tries to play innocent and let all the blame fall on Kefka (I was suspicious of him, but it was quite a surprise for Gestahl to reveal himself to be still villainous).

Ah - that is a good point on the humanity as the offshoot species, and since there are those other telling errors in the documents, not entirely trust-worthy. And true about the differing worlds thing; Cecil is the half-Lunarian from what I remember. Bartz's father came from another world, heh - yeah and then there's Terra - though as you say, it seems to go beyond genetics for how that works.

Speaking of Knight of Spira, I have sadly had no replies to my appeal for it via tumblr so should try another avenue (really want to finish that one too).

I think some fics did take the VI opera to be Loveless as well, but the ones I noticed for the most part (well, after learning who the VI cast were as at first fics would mention all these people and I'd be deeply confused as to what was going on/are these all OCs?!) often presented the lead in the play as Terra (in one fic - I think - this was Cloud's daughter. Not that I can remember if that fic had her as Aeris or that was another one (I remember a fair few Cloud's kids fics and in a percentage of them the daughter was named Aeris)). The idea of the play as a restructure of Celes' plot from VI like that is kind of appealing, but I confess its something I never really read into, and just saw it as part of the Midgar cityscape to make it feel like a real city - and that Loveless was a popular play (feels again like Zack being made overly important, CC also massively cranked up Loveless's importance for not entirely good reasons. Though... grudging acceptance for leading to Sinnatious's characterization of Genesis). And oh, yes, its a nice touch for Aeris herself and her first meeting of Cloud like that (which would be more likely the intent. I think I saw someone on Tumblr complain that that was too blatant).

Ah, I wonder if that crossover is the same - hadn't realised Cloud made it in too (though the method makes sense, but seriously Cloud! Stop doing that! (I have worrying visions its a I can't bear to be without Aeris, but I don't really want to kill myself... Wait, I've been swimming in the Lifestream before - let's do that!))

[raaj]

The Gestahl thing wasn't a surprise for me since I'd caught somewhere the thing about him trying to order Celes back on his side, but I have to say that at the time of the feast I was really wondering what major thing was going to happen to make him change again because it did seem pretty genuine. And then nope, he was just being a very smooth deceiver.

Bartz isn't one I would count for the half-child of two separate races for...reasons. (Er, I think you've gotten far enough to know why by now buuut. ...Have you? XD)

well, after learning who the VI cast were as at first fics would mention all these people and I'd be deeply confused as to what was going on/are these all OCs?!

lmfao that is the interesting thing about Final Fantasy crossovers that assume everyone's played all the games.

I remember a fair few Cloud's kids fics and in a percentage of them the daughter was named Aeris

/eyes Charis

Haha, yeah, Crisis Core really did make Loveless too important. I'm amused anyone would complain about the thing with Aerith being "too blatant", though, considering it's part of the background in an otherwise completely non-romantic setting and something that'd be natural to spot in a city: there's an obvious meaning to be drawn if you think about it, but that's if you think about it, it doesn't exactly hammer you over the head.

Ah, ah, the "jumping" in mako was exaggeration on my part: it was an accidental fall. It was, strangely enough, a XIII-VII crossover that completely ignored compilation, and Cloud's fall was actually from the Highwind during the turbulence from Holy and Meteor crashing: no Advent Children, no Dirge.

[sanctum_c]

Heh - for some reason I was just suspicious of him, regardless of how much blame he attributed to Kefka, it just seemed too easy for him to be innocent. But yeah I can see the wondering of what was going to make him snap again, but then he never was on their side...

Hmmm... I think I've played V over such a long time-period I'm possibly forgetting things. I'm on world 3/back to Castle Typhoon at the moment, and had the flashback with Bartz's dad coming to their world with Galuf and co (...I think). Might have to go read the wiki at some point.

Haha! Yeah getting into the FFVII fandom the first time around rapidly ran me into the VI elitists who had no time for the newcomer, and slightly behind those were the IV elitists. But you're right, there was a lot of expectation of knowing the (at the time) US released FFs, while over here this was the first and only one we'd ever seen. At one point I did get massively spoilered for FFIV as it was just expected I'd played that.

Ah, I count Charis as somewhat different to the others! She actually is Aeris; most of the examples I remember begin and end with the name.

I think the Loveless blatant thing was just one blogger a while back, and I'd agree its not too blatant in-game and works as background and an indication of characters. But from there to actually write up the poem for CC still feels an odd move from all concerned (as a friend commented, one problem now is that the VII world with CC has an overbalance in depicted culture; everyone knows what Loveless is/has seen it (seemingly), but where are the other plays, the TV programs (we see a few news feeds)?)

Ah, I kind of like the idea of the link for the VII-XIII ignoring the Compilation like that; that's quite neat. Though I did laugh at the thought of Cloud leaping into the Mako...

[raaj]

If you're at Typhoon Castle, I thiiiiink they're about to explain it? And oh, VI elitism; nowadays people are like "the fandom was never like that, it's only VII!" and it's just like "nope, you either never ran into it or didn't recognize it."

Ah, I count Charis as somewhat different to the others! She actually is Aeris; most of the examples I remember begin and end with the name.

Ah, I guess that's pretty true!

It...would be nice if they had bothered to add in other culture for the Planet, especially with Dirge's easter eggs being...Loveless posters; so sure, everyone knows it, but there must be other things they read/watch when they're sick of it we're certainly sick of it.

[sanctum_c]

Ah! Cool, I shall play a bit more V and get to the next reveal... Haha - yeah the FF fandom has always been elitist. I suspect it started right from the first game in some circles, and probably there was some from the IV towards VI, but VII seemed to draw more ire as it brought an influx of new fans who had never bothered with the genre before, and the VI people were not best pleased (frequently sidelining VII discussions with Xenogears recommendations. Actually, when I found Grandia years ago I looked it up before buying it and found it basically flew under everyone's radar but a lot of people were trying to champion it as better then FFVII. I really like the game, but its a very different experience).

...you have inspired a crack-fic idea; post DoC, Cloud and Tifa, or Cid and Shera (or maybe just all the couples) decide to go see a film together, or watch TV, or something. And to their absolute horror discover there is only productions of Loveless being performed. TV is showing a seven hour mini-series of the play, the radio is just tracks from one of the performances and the cinema has a film adaptation. There is much complaining about how popular the poem now is, but sadly no one can remember any other moments of pop-culture.

...thinking about this, this feels like a side-note in the Wutai Soap Opera story and one of the reasons why everyone winds up watching a Wutain soap opera so avidly; its the only non-Loveless thing available (...dammit, I'm on a run: post DoC it turns out that Genesis has somehow (alarmingly) gotten the gig as the WROs cultural leader... and this is why no one can move for Loveless. Avalanche eventually find out, reassemble and try to save Gaian culture from the insidious inescapable clutches of Loveless...)

[raaj]

I suspect it started right from the first game in some circles

Given the common complaints about II it is really easy to see that being a thing. And bah, sidelining FF7 and Xenogears! ...Yeah, championing Grandia as better does seem kind of weird.

...lmfao, I think I would crack up at that either as a side-note in the Wutai Soap Opera Saga or as a full-fledged crackfic of its own; Genesis as the WRO cultural leader makes me think Reeve has somehow been brainwashed into Loveless fanaticism. That or Cait's being held hostage. XD

[sanctum_c]

Ah - I think I gave the wrong impression; Xenogears was absolutely sacrosanct at the time. It was not criticized (certainly no one warned me that disc two indicated something had gone quite wrong in development) and seemed unassailable as the RPG against all others were measured. And all were found wanting!

Ahem.

VII I don't think ever got compared, or it might have been that no one thought it was worth it (which is kind of ironic given they were the same game once), or else because it was outside the FF series it just didn't come up the same way, so VII was always contrasted to VI.

Oddly enough, despite the attempted championing, Grandia was a rarity at the time as well; I think it was overlooked for a few reasons; the cutsey, anime designs lead to certain obvious worries (as did the cast's generally younger age), and its status as a Saturn port which had really flown under the radar wasn't helping. One thing that can be levelled against it is the world building doesn't seem anywhere near as involved as the Square games - there is a gigantic logical hole in Grandia's world that is never addressed and is actually really annoying upon realisation - there are simply no easy, or even really logical fixes either.

And trying to delve into some character's backstories dead-ends really quickly (the fan_flashwork I did was really hard work to adhere to the game's glimpsed details and actually have something to write about).

Anyway!

So very torn on the Genesis as the WRO cultural leader; I might try it as part of the Wutai Soap Opera fic, but since the focus is more on Avalanche, maybe it should be separate. And yeah I think Reeve could be brainwashed/Cait Sith is held hostage... Basically this is a much more amusing interpretation of Genesis's final DoC lines - he's saving the world via Loveless! Much to the world's distress.

(kind of amusing that for both these scenarios, the artistic people have not lived through Meteor, Geostigma and DeepGround hence how Reno and Genesis can do what they plan. Something faintly Lovecraftian about the creative types dying like that...)

[raaj]

Oh oh I thought "sidelining" meant both were getting kind of sequestered from main discussion on forums/message boards. That FF7 was getting derailed with Xenogears recommendations...that's bratty too but yes, different. And ahhhh, that second disc. >_>

Yeah, from what I remember of the Grandia series they did seem like fun games, I just. Wouldn't have put them as high as Final Fantasy.

...The "Lovecraftian" remark reminds me of trying to match Jenova up to a Lovecraft style universe--and I do think there was an Old One that actually seemed very close, but now I can't quite remember...can't find it either. Maybe I made it up. Darn it! And yes the world is quite distressed to be saved like this.

[sanctum_c]

Heh - and yeah the Xenogears worship was slightly aggravating as we had basically two RPGs of note (VII and VIII (well 3, but Grandia again was an obscurity)) and people were not terribly keen on discussing them in favour of that or VI. And yeah, the second disc... In some ways I suppose it does make Xenogears feel a decent length and not overwhelming. I was amazed with how long the first disc took, and so for that to be the half-way point... It's definitely not a good solution to whatever happened, but at least they did get the whole story into the game and didn't have to chop sections out to make the timeframe. I'm blanking on other examples, but I'm sure there are examples of things finished hastily, early and even less elegantly which formerly had so much potential.

Haha - yeah definitely agree the Grandias are fun, but they're just not as involving - its very much a more simplistic and straight-forward series that very much feels it skews younger audience wise (especially the first one). The second is substantially darker, the third was some catastrophe that almost wrecked the series (it really was astonishingly badly received), and the fourth... I tried to play it. I really did, but despite the return of the second game's director, it was so... uninvolving it was kind of alarming. It felt "wrong".

(...after much rambling, I think I'd put it down as Grandia has its moments, but its kind of something to play if you want a break from the FFs, and just want something fluffier and lighter).

Hmm.. Usually I would equate Jenova to a Shoggoth (much like the Thing in um, The Thing - which I imagine was an inspiration on Jenova's discovery) for the shape-shifting and general horrible appearance. Cthulhu himself is capable of regeneration based on his singular appearance, and Shub-Niggurath (the black goat of the woods with a thousand young - never actively described or depicted only ever invoked) had a certain right feel. There could be well be a much closer entity given how the Mythos got expanded - I've only ever read the actual Lovecraft ones (and a quick skim read of Wikipedia doesn't help as there are hundreds of creatures listed and I hadn't heard of most).

...now I'm having crazy ideas like after ousting Genesis, Avalanche find themselves on the hook for the cultural revival of the Planet and now they have to come up with replacements for Loveless. Cloud's first idea is to hire the Gold Saucer performers which is shot down rather rapidly (and might be resorted to later if they run low on ideas). And then Cid starts some kind of weird Home Improvement/mechanic show, Yuffie's runs for one episode before being taken down for various reasons (she's doing a documentary about security and illustrates this by breaking into Reeve's house)...

[raaj]

From what I know of Xenogears, what happened was basically budget problems--they hit a wall and had to wrap up quickly. Which yeah, even if it was awkwardly done they at least got the whole story in rather than cut it short and confusingly.

I thiiink there was one that was closer (and feminine as well) but in the face of my imagination possibly outright inventing Lovecraftian horrors that don't actually exist, yeah, any of the shape-shifters would be right for that aspect.

Cloud wants to be co-host on the Home Improvement/mechanic show... well, no, really he just wants to play with some of Cid's projects once the cameras are done rolling (and Cid probably curses him out that if he wants to mess with machines he'll get his ass in front of the camera. And SMILE, DAMMIT! ...this sounds like a weird show in itself) and oh, er, yeah, Yuffie's run does seem like it'd be a brief run before hitting pesky legalities headfirst.

But hey, Tifa would own the food network with a cooking/wine show.

(...Imagining a scenario where Reeve goes slightly insane with 'Inspire' and creates a whole Sesame Street-style cast on his own and then toddles off to sleep for three days straight while everyone just. stares. And the puppets are getting to work on their own and no one is really quite sure if this is better or worse than the initial Loveless takeover, Reeve this isn't quite natural WHAT HAVE YOU DONE)

[sanctum_c]

Supposed to be going to sleep, but my brain is now whirring!

(There could easily be a more feminine match for Jenova in the expanded Mythos; Lovecraft was not great on female characters or female Elder Gods. But then even if there's not, Jenova feels like she would fit in the pantheon without any problems (the fic 'The Guardian Amulet 2' despite being a comedy crossover does at least use the idea of the malevolent shape-shifting force from beyond the stars in each game having a common ancestory - and while this gets a bit weird due to the comedy, it has a kind of right feel)), and the Mythos is built up on new additions, so a made up one/using Jenova is actually just as valid as any published creature.

...got side-tracked.

Really laughing at Cloud helping Cid like that - and now I have visions of him filming his own segments while on delivery of testing something in the wasteland from a static camera angle. And everyday Cid tells him he has to smile more. And not keep triggering the Chocobo lure as that running gag was fun at first, but this is a tech show not the animal lovers show (/Cloud puts in a request for a caring for your chocobo show).

Heh - I was wondering if Tifa doing cookery was too obvious, but yeah, she would own that/filmed on location in the Seventh Heaven.

REALLY like the Reeve idea though with the Sesame Street style cast (need all the cute plushies we can find. Even Moogle girl's), and in between filming the animated puppets start helping with WRO work and yeah - everyone is worried about if this is better or worse then Loveless... What has he done!?

(Oh, and the Turks run a late-night poker channel - Reno under strict instructions he's only allowed to assist with factual things - no more fictional forays).

Weird idea now of Yuffie's second show being a warped agony aunt in a role she hates, which also gets rapidly cancelled.

And! Naturally, Aeris cannot resist getting involved, but isn't going to be obvious - so there is a rumour about setting your TV to a certain channel (maybe 777 or 555) at a certain time of day, you can hear someone humming happily, and sort of make out a flower garden...

(that or the two of them like to show up briefly in the background of other shows for blink and miss it - "Nah, can't have been" moments)

[raaj]

I think I've heard that before about the mythologies--it's pretty interesting that the Mythos has become so inclusive (which I suppose is just natural with how many different writers have expanded on it).

Haha Cloud just can't help the chocobo lure, sorry Cid (at which point he is banned from wearing it...and I'm now picturing the Chocobo Sage hosting the chocobo care show which makes it somewhat surreal to watch as he'll forget what he was saying/change tracks mid-sentence. Eventually the crew learns to focus more on the chocobos he breeds than what he's saying--and maybe get Cole from the Chocobo farm involved to parse his advice)

Tifa doing cookery IS sort of obvious, but then so is Cid and machinery. She could probably do something teaching martial arts too but it is sort of the oddity of compilation that she's never seemed to show any inclination toward that. (A less obvious but still plausible possibility, I think, would be some sort of "wonders of the world" show-- remembering the sights of AVALANCHE's travels she enjoyed, reprising her first job as a guide, and maybe a bit of a homage to a dear friend who loved nature herself. Buuuut I imagine this would be more a mini-series sort of deal than a regular show, as she wouldn't want filming to take her away from Seventh Heaven all the time. Part of why a cooking show works so well, really. Then again with compilation travel times, there's really nothing to worry about)

Haha, I have to admit I was really taken with the Reeve's Sesame Street once I thought of it too--it's got that toy cuteness of Cait Sith, the public service Reeve would want to provide via educational entertainment for young children... and that niggling worrying aspect of just how do Reeve's animatronic minions work. Easy to see them helping out with WRO work too, because being overtaxed by work is probably why Reeve went slightly manic in the first place! (And his human staff, while cautiously appreciating the stuffed help, take care to make sure more of his work gets delegated so it doesn't happen again...)

lmfao the poker channel would eventually run into a scandal because everyone thinks Reno's cheating (...even funnier if he actually isn't)

Zack and Aerith getting involved make me think of weird moments during Cloud's show where he seems to be getting annoyed but none of the crew can tell why so they try to give him more space... and then he just finally snaps out "Zack, stop that!" and they all think he's crazy until they're reviewing footage for the show. The camera caught Zack and Aerith doing little things the whole time.

[sanctum_c]

It is a nice feature that the Mythos does expand as and when a new author feels like it. I think a lot of it is due to Lovecraft actively encouraged others to set stories in the universe and come up with their own additions - so from the very start it wasn't ever truly under his control.

Haha - yeah, Cid's banning the lure if Cloud wants to continue to help out on his show. And the Chocobo Sage sounds a great idea for the chocobo care show - and so surreal (at some point whoever's in charge (thinking Nanaki as of right now) turns to his assistant and asks who okayed him to present something and air it. And the assistant is bewildered and thought that Nanaki had). Hehe - yeah I think they'd draft in Cole to make more sense of what he's on about/give the show some semblance of struture.

Ah - very true, Tifa is as obvious as Cid with machinery. You're right that the martial arts teaching feels it should be an option, but doesn't quite seem to fit with her character post-game. I kind of like the idea of her doing a travelogue though/linking that back into her past as a guide - and definitely the homage to a dear friend. But yeah, very much in short bursts so she doesn't want to be away from the Seventh Heaven for too long. Heh; yeah the Compilation travel times kinda negate the issue).

For some reason in my head the other cast of Reeve's Sesame Street cast (...I want to say something *other* then Loveless Avenue, but damned if I can remember any other street names. Assuming I haven't just made that one up) is largely based on Lulu's weapons from FFX. Definitely liking the high-minded aims of Reeve there too; educational entertainment with cute mascots - and likely only Avalanche/the WRO remain nigglingly curious about how Reeve is capable of producing the mascots, and so fast... and with the ability to help around the office. And yeah the other staff while grateful for the help are going to ensure that doesn't happen again...

Hehe - yeah, Reno isn't cheating on the poker show, but people just assume...

Haha! Oh I really like that suggestion for the moments where Cloud looks annoyed but no one can figure out why/thinks he's crazy until they revisit the footage and see the two spirits messing around...

[raaj]

It's hard for me to imagine Nanaki having watched much tv (...now wondering if Cosmo Canyon actually does have TVs or doesn't bother with them--I can't remember) so just him producing makes me think that WRO is getting desperate on the personnel side for reasons and that's part of why Chocobo Sage got dragged in XD Though I mean considering how Nanaki was brought up he's probably the best person to talk to/tolerate and respect the old man. Just...yes. Might be time to bring Cole in to help get his wisdom across to the audience.

HAHA I wanted to say Loveless Avenue myself before remembering they're trying to get rid of that; I think it's a common fanon street name if not actual canon (and want to say it's come up in Sinnatious fic). --Ah, wikia to the rescue; it's a location name in at least Crisis Core, so canon. That said I can see since they're trying to get rid of that they desperately go for any other name (...now picturing the puppets, being fairly simple in logic and knowing their puppet lord and master Reeve has had enough of Loveless, just go for the exact opposite in meaning: Welcome to "Love Street"! AVALANCHE, on the side watching the set's construction, gets to hear Cloud remark "it sounds like a place you'd find in Wall Market". Cue looks at his entirely straight face, like he doesn't even realize how inappropriate his remark was to make about a children's show, and then cue the first pow-wow with the puppets because he's right, it does sound weird).

[sanctum_c]

I really can't remember Cosmo Canyon having TVs either, and it does feel like the kind of thing they wouldn't have... But then I wouldn't expect them to have Bugenhagen's holographic planetarium either, so... its possible at least. Anyway! I like the idea that the WRO is desperate for staff for why Nanaki and the Chocobo Sage are there at all.

Haha! Good point, calling it Loveless Avanue after the current mess is just asking for trouble (and I am going to be dubious about that even as a canon name; it would seem to suggest either that Loveless was somehow inspired by the location, or that the play has been around so long and is so popular that the street was named for it. Either way, that feels iffy).

(actually there was a neat Midgar subway map someone produced a while back - with a few annoying caveats like the train lines connecting to the lower plate at the edges of the upper-plate seemed completely opposed to in-game depiction - but otherwise had a whole host of station names. Though after a while those turned into FFVIII onward references)

Really like the puppet's simplistic inversion of the title, and Cloud's deadpan/oblivious remark, and then the new hastier discussion of how to retitle the show (dammit, FFVII if only you have at least *one* other street name. Aside from Wall Market) as he's right...

[raaj]

Maybe not the play itself, but the original poem seemed like it was supposed to be very old. Hojo cites that it's an ancient story, which is probably why the last part is irrecoverably lost; so that a street might be named after it isn't really more ridiculous than a place being named after, say, Shakespeare or one of his works, which there are. Although WHY HOJO IS INTERESTED IN LOVELESS AND REFERS TO IT AS POSSIBLE RESEARCH is yet another can of "why the heck did you guys make it so implausibly, ludicrously, stupidly important" worms. I just...gah. Gaaaaah.

Oh! I think the map came up before, when we were talking about the number of train stations in Midgar. The VIII onward references sound cute XD (and hey, gotta get names from somewhere)

...I got really excited for a moment, thinking "there's street signs in Costa Del Sol!"...but now that I look at the one picture on FF wikia, I can only make one of the four directions out, and it seems to just be "world" (pointing out toward where you'd get to the world map)...er... XD

[sanctum_c]

Haha! Oh I keep forgetting that bizarreness with Hojo researching it (um, Hojo?). Mostly gaaaaah! as well. But that's true if it is really old naming a street after it doesn't seem out of the question at all (I get the feeling they wanted to make it seem a bit like the epic of Gilgamesh).

Ah! Yeah I probably did mention the map before. And somewhat foolishly I don't think I saved a copy of it anywhere. And true - the names will have to be sourced somewhere (and I was borrowing from FFVIII for the Wutai soap opera anyway...)

Ack! That's annoying for Costa del Sol - though a neat possible source. There is a possibility though, since some of the background art was done by a famous studio (who's name unhelpfully escapes me) a load of it was printed in an artbook... Unfortunately depends very much if they did that location or not.

[gardeningaia]

Yeah, they did seem to be going for a very old classic feeling--possibly into 'downright ancient' when there's the stone tablets with the poem carved on them at then end (then again Zack can read them just fine when Bugenhagen had trouble making out the older language from the Cetra, so either that wasn't very well thought out or...the tablets are Genesis being overly dramatic again lmfao).

I'll have to load FFVII again sometime (I've been messing with bits of XIII when in the mood for the combat system) and see if the sign's clearer in-game.

[raaj]

...and hello, I'm slipping up and responding with rp journals now since I'm doing test runs with them. >_> YOU MAY SEE A RESPONSE FROM 'PYRITIC' AS WELL it's amazing how even with an extension for switching between accounts I'm still terrible at it.

[sanctum_c]

Not to worry! The reply got combined in with the other DW updates in my email. And I've made that kind of slip up before (didn't know there were extensions for quick switches like that - that's quite neat). Ah! I forgot about the ancient copies of Loveless... though yeah that seems to uncover yet another moment of not really thinking things through if Zack can read them fine and Bugenhagen had issues with reading ancient Cetra... As much of a joke as it was, I kind of like the idea that Genesis has been hand-carving them himself while he's been lurking down there (or, well, maybe hiring someone else to carve them, but it was totally his idea).

Ah - I'll also check if the modded PC version is any clearer too (unlikely as the forced upscale looks a bit smudgey in places which is unfortunaely inevitable). How far through XIII have you gotten again out of interest?