"What of Eurydice?"
Jun. 17th, 2013 09:56 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
raajThe memory of Anthy out of reach, outside of Utena's ability to help, dangling in the air as her body was pierced by countless swords, is still fresh in mind. Months have passed, and Utena keeps putting one foot forward, but her heart and mind are stretching out to cover a distant expanse.
She doesn't know where Anthy is. Still the Rose Bride? Still the sacrifice? So pierced by hate that she thinks she has to be another person's tool?
Utena is not afraid of the world, and she makes certain to stay in it, in this new school. She wants for Anthy to be able to find know this world isn't one to be afraid of because she can meet her in it.
But, in the end, Anthy had slipped away--no. She had LET Anthy slip away. Why should the other girl trust her as a prince, then? As a protector? She'd tried so hard, and yet not been quite enough.
Her mind turns in circles until it has done a full rotation, pointing back to where it came from, and Utena finds herself staring down a transfer form to request acceptance to Ohtori Academy.
Going back means more duels, if the revolution is still being sought after. It means more pain, if Anthy continue to be the Rose Bride. --But of course it means more pain, because Anthy suffers every moment she is the Rose Bride.
Utena sits down with the transfer form and steadily, aching, fills it out, every moment remembering the pain of those million swords. Her penmanship is as smooth as her finest swordstroke. Her teachers likely would have been surprised to see it.
She wonders if Akio will kill her, should she go back, but maybe he'll try to seduce her first. More likely, her request will be denied outright and she'll have to live with the regret of having failed Anthy.
What Utena wasn't expecting was for the secretary's desk to suddenly be vacated, the chair swinging just slightly. How could that be? She'd never heard the secretary leave.
"Utena."
Her head snaps up in shock--and she almost turns around, but then reminds herself she shouldn't be so surprised. Of course Anthy might be here. This office itself was connected to Ohtori Academy. But to be discovered like this, for Anthy to be here like this...Utena could not be sure what to expect. Was Anthy here under Akio's direction? She had to be. Why would she be here otherwise? Then whatever she said, Utena could not take it to heart. For both their sakes. This is the beginning of another round.
She keeps her head pointed away, trying to find her composure. "Long time no see, Himemiya. Have you been all right?"
"Mm. But you don't seem so well, Utena."
"Really? I'm just put out that that secretary's disappeared to who-knows-where..."
"Perhaps she had somewhere to be."
Utena knew enough now to consider the possibility of Anthy giving the woman somewhere to be.
"Have you heard the legend of Eurydice?"
"Eurydice?" Leave it to Anthy to ask a strange question. Eurydice is a strange name, too. "I can't say I have..."
"I suppose her husband is the better known one. A gentle player of the lyre, Orpheus," and this foreign name Utena does vaguely recognize as it comes curled from Anthy's lips. "The poor man ventured down into the underworld to retrieve her. His touch on the string, keen with grief, was such that he lulled the hound of Hades to sleep, and the god himself was moved by the song. He agreed to Orpheus' request to let his wife return to the realm of the living, on one condition. She would follow behind him, and he must never look back at her, until they were both fully within the lands of the living again.
"Of course, the story is a tragedy."
Her fingers twitch, or her hands loosen; she's not sure exactly how she moved, but the form has fallen through her hands to the floor. Utena doesn't move, doesn't bend to pick them up. She can't. Doing so might chance a look back at Anthy, only to see nothing but a shed skin of fabric left behind by its vanished owner. Except--that's too simple. It can't be her task is as simple as not looking at Anthy, whose words have reassured her so far that she is here.
...Here, in the transfer offices. Utena's heart grows cold at the thought. Perhaps this has been a test all along, and she has already failed, looking back to the school with doubt that Anthy had emerged from her coffin.
"Anthy...don't tell me..."
"Utena." A hand snakes onto her arm, and Utena startles in surprise, but still she forces herself to not turn around; some part of her still grasps to the hope that she can salvage a chance by not looking back physically. "This tale is always told from Orpheus' point of view. But what of his wife? What of Eurydice?"
Anthy's arm turns to catch Utena under the shoulder, pinning her ever so lightly into place. She has to fight not to tense, not to turn around. She doesn't mean to let her throat tighten either, but it happens too quickly for her to stop. It feels like a trap she doesn't want to escape.
"What of Eurydice?" Anthy asks again, her tone smooth and deep.
"She was let down," Utena answers. "He didn't save her. She followed him all that way... I'm sure she had many hopes. But he couldn't be her prince. Wouldn't she hate him for it?" Do you hate me, that I couldn't be yours?
It sounds like dread confirmation when Anthy leans into her shoulder with a small chuckle, and for a split-second Utena expects a blade in her side to drive the point of failure home one last time.
Then there is wetness on her back, and Utena arches in surprise. "Himemiya?" It's a whisper with so little breath behind it. In an instant she whirls around, forgetting the thought of a test, the fear of a blade, only believing that her friend is hurt. She catches herself just as she goes to hug the other girl-- but then she does anyway. If looking back was the test, she's failed. She's failed so many times over. How could she look away from Anthy?
At least for this instant, her friend feels real and substantial. Here with her, and not just the empty cloth of a dress. There is the warmth of skin to feel, the weight of long, thick hair.
"Utena, you would comfort me even now?" Anthy murmurs. "I have been Eurydice. I have waited, waited, waited in my coffin, never truly believing I would be rescued. And I drew you deeper and deeper into an underworld of magic and deceit. But still, even when you knew all the dangers, you came in deeper still to save me. All I had to do to be free was follow you. But I didn't give you the smallest sign that I was behind you, following. So for me, you looked back into a nightmare once more." She lifts her head up, and her face is one that stuns Utena, as it's so unlike the mild girl who tended the roses: there are tears in her eyes, yet a small smile that is at the same time twisted up, thorned against any retorts that might come her way. She's not wearing her glasses. "I think, Miss Utena, if Eurydice hated anyone, it was herself. For putting someone she loved through a nightmare, and for not making the slightest move to reassure them that the efforts they'd gone through weren't in vain."
"But-- you said it was a tragedy," Utena says. She feels like she's teetering, not knowing how to take Anthy's words. Well, that's one thing that hasn't changed, then. "I-- Orpheus..."
"Utena," Anthy interrupts, and reaches up a hand to her cheek. Belatedly, Utena realizes she's been crying herself. "Did you think you were Orpheus? You bargained with no one."
***
I didn't know how to handle the Utena-sama (or san) / Utena / Miss Utena myself. Miss Utena felt too stiff to do every single time, Utena too casual, honorifics were kind of ech for both mixing languages and because I'm not even 100% sure what would be most appropriate for Anthy, I think I blanked if she used something different at the end.
Then there's the setup in general. To be honest most of this comes from the talk of coffins and me having had Orpheus' legend more on the brain for months and months now thanks to an interesting game called "Don't look back" (which I haven't actually beaten--attempted, but not beaten--but watched a youtube playthrough of). And then the fact that Orpheus legend really IS always looked at from the view of Orpheus, so it seemed kind of fun to flip it around: how did Eurydice feel about what happened?
Plus it seemed weird that it took months and months for Anthy to actually leave. Utena definitely sparked something in her, but maybe it took a while to actually manifest as resolve. ...Which, I can see as if Utena does remember the school and all, that being well enough time for her to become truly convinced she had completely failed Anthy given the tone of her comments after Anthy slipped away and the way she pretty much had a heroic bsod after losing the duel to Touga. So. ...That's how the fic got writ.
She doesn't know where Anthy is. Still the Rose Bride? Still the sacrifice? So pierced by hate that she thinks she has to be another person's tool?
Utena is not afraid of the world, and she makes certain to stay in it, in this new school. She wants for Anthy to be able to find know this world isn't one to be afraid of because she can meet her in it.
But, in the end, Anthy had slipped away--no. She had LET Anthy slip away. Why should the other girl trust her as a prince, then? As a protector? She'd tried so hard, and yet not been quite enough.
Her mind turns in circles until it has done a full rotation, pointing back to where it came from, and Utena finds herself staring down a transfer form to request acceptance to Ohtori Academy.
Going back means more duels, if the revolution is still being sought after. It means more pain, if Anthy continue to be the Rose Bride. --But of course it means more pain, because Anthy suffers every moment she is the Rose Bride.
Utena sits down with the transfer form and steadily, aching, fills it out, every moment remembering the pain of those million swords. Her penmanship is as smooth as her finest swordstroke. Her teachers likely would have been surprised to see it.
She wonders if Akio will kill her, should she go back, but maybe he'll try to seduce her first. More likely, her request will be denied outright and she'll have to live with the regret of having failed Anthy.
What Utena wasn't expecting was for the secretary's desk to suddenly be vacated, the chair swinging just slightly. How could that be? She'd never heard the secretary leave.
"Utena."
Her head snaps up in shock--and she almost turns around, but then reminds herself she shouldn't be so surprised. Of course Anthy might be here. This office itself was connected to Ohtori Academy. But to be discovered like this, for Anthy to be here like this...Utena could not be sure what to expect. Was Anthy here under Akio's direction? She had to be. Why would she be here otherwise? Then whatever she said, Utena could not take it to heart. For both their sakes. This is the beginning of another round.
She keeps her head pointed away, trying to find her composure. "Long time no see, Himemiya. Have you been all right?"
"Mm. But you don't seem so well, Utena."
"Really? I'm just put out that that secretary's disappeared to who-knows-where..."
"Perhaps she had somewhere to be."
Utena knew enough now to consider the possibility of Anthy giving the woman somewhere to be.
"Have you heard the legend of Eurydice?"
"Eurydice?" Leave it to Anthy to ask a strange question. Eurydice is a strange name, too. "I can't say I have..."
"I suppose her husband is the better known one. A gentle player of the lyre, Orpheus," and this foreign name Utena does vaguely recognize as it comes curled from Anthy's lips. "The poor man ventured down into the underworld to retrieve her. His touch on the string, keen with grief, was such that he lulled the hound of Hades to sleep, and the god himself was moved by the song. He agreed to Orpheus' request to let his wife return to the realm of the living, on one condition. She would follow behind him, and he must never look back at her, until they were both fully within the lands of the living again.
"Of course, the story is a tragedy."
Her fingers twitch, or her hands loosen; she's not sure exactly how she moved, but the form has fallen through her hands to the floor. Utena doesn't move, doesn't bend to pick them up. She can't. Doing so might chance a look back at Anthy, only to see nothing but a shed skin of fabric left behind by its vanished owner. Except--that's too simple. It can't be her task is as simple as not looking at Anthy, whose words have reassured her so far that she is here.
...Here, in the transfer offices. Utena's heart grows cold at the thought. Perhaps this has been a test all along, and she has already failed, looking back to the school with doubt that Anthy had emerged from her coffin.
"Anthy...don't tell me..."
"Utena." A hand snakes onto her arm, and Utena startles in surprise, but still she forces herself to not turn around; some part of her still grasps to the hope that she can salvage a chance by not looking back physically. "This tale is always told from Orpheus' point of view. But what of his wife? What of Eurydice?"
Anthy's arm turns to catch Utena under the shoulder, pinning her ever so lightly into place. She has to fight not to tense, not to turn around. She doesn't mean to let her throat tighten either, but it happens too quickly for her to stop. It feels like a trap she doesn't want to escape.
"What of Eurydice?" Anthy asks again, her tone smooth and deep.
"She was let down," Utena answers. "He didn't save her. She followed him all that way... I'm sure she had many hopes. But he couldn't be her prince. Wouldn't she hate him for it?" Do you hate me, that I couldn't be yours?
It sounds like dread confirmation when Anthy leans into her shoulder with a small chuckle, and for a split-second Utena expects a blade in her side to drive the point of failure home one last time.
Then there is wetness on her back, and Utena arches in surprise. "Himemiya?" It's a whisper with so little breath behind it. In an instant she whirls around, forgetting the thought of a test, the fear of a blade, only believing that her friend is hurt. She catches herself just as she goes to hug the other girl-- but then she does anyway. If looking back was the test, she's failed. She's failed so many times over. How could she look away from Anthy?
At least for this instant, her friend feels real and substantial. Here with her, and not just the empty cloth of a dress. There is the warmth of skin to feel, the weight of long, thick hair.
"Utena, you would comfort me even now?" Anthy murmurs. "I have been Eurydice. I have waited, waited, waited in my coffin, never truly believing I would be rescued. And I drew you deeper and deeper into an underworld of magic and deceit. But still, even when you knew all the dangers, you came in deeper still to save me. All I had to do to be free was follow you. But I didn't give you the smallest sign that I was behind you, following. So for me, you looked back into a nightmare once more." She lifts her head up, and her face is one that stuns Utena, as it's so unlike the mild girl who tended the roses: there are tears in her eyes, yet a small smile that is at the same time twisted up, thorned against any retorts that might come her way. She's not wearing her glasses. "I think, Miss Utena, if Eurydice hated anyone, it was herself. For putting someone she loved through a nightmare, and for not making the slightest move to reassure them that the efforts they'd gone through weren't in vain."
"But-- you said it was a tragedy," Utena says. She feels like she's teetering, not knowing how to take Anthy's words. Well, that's one thing that hasn't changed, then. "I-- Orpheus..."
"Utena," Anthy interrupts, and reaches up a hand to her cheek. Belatedly, Utena realizes she's been crying herself. "Did you think you were Orpheus? You bargained with no one."
***
I didn't know how to handle the Utena-sama (or san) / Utena / Miss Utena myself. Miss Utena felt too stiff to do every single time, Utena too casual, honorifics were kind of ech for both mixing languages and because I'm not even 100% sure what would be most appropriate for Anthy, I think I blanked if she used something different at the end.
Then there's the setup in general. To be honest most of this comes from the talk of coffins and me having had Orpheus' legend more on the brain for months and months now thanks to an interesting game called "Don't look back" (which I haven't actually beaten--attempted, but not beaten--but watched a youtube playthrough of). And then the fact that Orpheus legend really IS always looked at from the view of Orpheus, so it seemed kind of fun to flip it around: how did Eurydice feel about what happened?
Plus it seemed weird that it took months and months for Anthy to actually leave. Utena definitely sparked something in her, but maybe it took a while to actually manifest as resolve. ...Which, I can see as if Utena does remember the school and all, that being well enough time for her to become truly convinced she had completely failed Anthy given the tone of her comments after Anthy slipped away and the way she pretty much had a heroic bsod after losing the duel to Touga. So. ...That's how the fic got writ.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-18 10:06 pm (UTC)...I'm going to have to look up "Don't Look Back" now, but I'm intrigued. And its a very good point that we never do get that myth from Eurydice's POV ever, so this is really interesting from that perspective. ...I had never actually caught that before/actually realised it, but yeah; why does Anthy take so long to leave? The passage of time is admittedly never stated, but logically there was to be time for people to forget Utena, the other duelist’s relationships mend and life on campus to move on... I'd agree that the change can't have been instantaneous, as I can see Akio being pretty nervous the first few days afterwards in case Utena did achieve something, but when his power still seems absolute/Anthy still seems subservient he just dismisses his concerns... And the time lag works for Utena to think she has failed Anthy.
...I haven't read many Utena fics at all so far (just gotten so engrossed in FFVII), but I'm not aware of any using this setup which is really neat. The idea of Utena contemplating a return to Ohtori is a terrible course of action for her, but at the same time completely right - admittedly we never find out what/how much/if anything Utena knew after Anthy fell, whether she's in the outside world waiting for Anthy to come to her, or she's lost all memories of the incidents. So having Utena retain all her memories and want to go back to fulfill the promise she made so long ago and rescue Anthy feels entirely right - she really has no way of knowing Anthy's already en route.
I think there's an extra/missing word(s) in this sentence:
"She wants for Anthy to be able to find know this world isn't one to be afraid of because she can meet her in it."
But I can really see Utena feeling she has failed Anthy - not sure if there is any head-canon on that (usually you then rapidly run into people linking Adolescence in by saying its the thematic sequel to the series rather then a literal one. Which might be true, but really doesn't help with plotting post-canon like that), again we really don't know what she does know of the aftermath of the final duel. I really like the idea of her resolving to go back to Ohtori; even if that's just for more duels, or Akio alternately killing her or seducing her again - or simply rejecting her transfer. Oh and the idea of the physically disparate connections nevertheless having a connection back to Ohtori and thus allowing for possible weirdness like Anthy manifesting, that's a nice surreal feel to it - even if it is ultimately Utena's misconception of the situation.
And I really like little details like Utena realising that Anthy could easily have gotten the secretary out of the way, or the fear of finding an empty dress if she turns around again - that's going to be one of many moments of her leaving Ohtori that feels like it's been haunting her ever since, and things like the missing glasses. But then the worry that what she has to do can't be that simple - and I do really like how Utena leaps to that conclusion and the way everything is presented reinforces that until she reacts to Anthy crying and just has to turn and everything's fine - and Anthy drops the last piece that she never made the deal Orpheus did. And the fear of the blade... I think normally people avoid this as usually the desire is to get the pair together at long last and anything like the betrayals and unexpectedness of the final duel is glossed over. But Utena is going to worry about that; the last time Anthy was behind her she really did run her through, so the fear that she'll experience that pain all over again is all too real. But at the same time she doesn't want to turn because of how the situation seems to work.
And just the thought that she's failed a test by hugging Anthy and just not caring and doing it anyway because she couldn't not look at her... This was tense, slightly surreal and a nice ending.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-21 10:13 pm (UTC)Here's a video playthrough of Don't Look Back, edited to remove most of the (common) deaths. In fact I think the editing went a step too far (or maybe they were just that good) because it's completely missing the second type of game over which adds a bit more impact to the ending: this video has the player figuring out that no, they aren't allowed to look back at the ghost. If you press right at ANY point during the second half of the playthrough, this game over happens. It's a tricky game. Its difficulty, the trickiness with the second half, and the ending are what make it interesting. I really like the music too, though it's fairly simple.
Passage of time... it's kind of stated in the ending, though actually now that I listened to the dialogue rather than just reading the subtitles it appears to be less time then I was led to believe at first. (Subtitle says "a few months back", regarding when Utena left; student is actually saying "Sengetsu ka sensengetsu ni" which would be "last month or the month before". Still enough time for change, and still a bit weird on Anthy's part, but not as weird.) I was a bit worried at first, about that it was a shorter time, but then add in the time Anthy is searching for Utena and it's still possible for Utena to get the idea that she has no idea if Anthy is okay, she needs to go back. And then Anthy is still looking and when she figures out what Utena is thinking, yes, absolutely needing to intercept her because her brother would probably find a way to do something terrible with a transfer request.
...I still haven't watched the movie. HAHA I really need to fix that. So as a thematic follow-up do you (or people arguing this I guess) mean it touches on how Utena might've felt about the ending, or...? But yeah, even after Utena's managed to open the coffin, once Anthy slips away she's crying and apologizing for not being able to be her prince and it's just. Utena. :(
And I really like little details like Utena realising that Anthy could easily have gotten the secretary out of the way,
Funny enough, on the very first draft Anthy's response to Utena's forced grumbling about the secretary was that she herself had been the secretary. And then I was like '...wait okay maybe I should dial down the potential creepiness WE'RE NOT IN OHTORI ANYMORE'. XD Though in a way, the setup of the conversation is a bit of Anthy being weird in itself: she could have just told Utena how she felt, but instead relates it to a legend, in part, I think, to be sure of what Utena thinks the situation is by how she takes it (which, yeah, she's blaming herself for how things concluded at the school far more than Anthy would, and Anthy's not at all surprised by that but still sad). But yeah, I'm glad the little details of oddities from Ohtori worked!
I did see at least one fanfic that acknowledged the idea of Utena being scared when Anthy held her a certain way but that was also years and years after series...so I liked that idea and it did influence my writing, but I also don't see it lasting so long once Utena and Anthy have a chance to build an honest relationship. It definitely works for a reunion though, with initial feelings of jitteriness (if Utena remembers; even subconsciously, if she doesn't).
"She wants for Anthy to be able to find know this world isn't one to be afraid of because she can meet her in it."
CURSE EDITING AT LATE NIGHT which I think is when I messed with that particular line. Actually I'm not sure I got to being happy with that line at all, which might be why it's mangled, but I might reduce it to "She wants Anthy to know this world isn't one to be afraid of, because she can find her in it."
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-21 11:29 pm (UTC)Ah - I can see where they got "few months" for the subs from that, but that is a little misleading for the passage of time - definitely enough time for changes and a bit of weirdness on Anthy's part as you said, but not too weird. And oh, if Akio ever got wind of Utena voluntarily going back to Ohtori, then yeah he would be ready to do something terrible (actually now I'm wondering; a few decades down the line would Utena and Anthy dare go back? I'm just thinking in terms of some of Akio's visitors - though he seduces them without much resistance, so maybe that's too risky for them. I was just wondering if they could re-enter the grounds, knowing full well they can get out easily, but then shockingly see Akio is still exactly as he always was).
I should probably stop mentioning the movie actually (sorry!). The thematic followup... I've never quite bought into the argument. I can see it partially, or at least see where they're coming from - its rather then Utena rescuing Anthy, this time Anthy takes the active role in the escape... But then it all goes so weird given the visuals and the surreal sequence of events that lead to leaving Ohtori in the film. So nothing more on how Utena would have felt when she thinks she failed... Kinda dancing around the subject as going in cold to the movie seems the best way, as just mentioning some of the events in advance... Well, it kind of loses the impact.
Really I've always treated the movie as an AU; so along with the Adolescence manga (which is different again from the movie) there are four similar but different versions of the Utena story.
Haha; while I do like the idea of Utena suddenly realising that the secretary is Anthy, that is a little far away from Ohtori like that (though does raise the interesting idea of what, if any, powers does Anthy have now? Is she still technically a witch, or...?). I like the idea that Anthy is using the legend to test the waters with how Utena feels now; it was a nice moment to have Anthy set off to see Utena happy and eager, but I like this take where she realises that one of the last times they saw each other she impaled her on a sword - and while she was desperately trying to free her from the coffin, that she did something like that feels easy to occur to her as a "Well, maybe Utena's mind changed in the meantime"
Yeah, I'd agree that the nervousness of Anthy behind Utena feels a right thing to have happen, but they'd get past that quickly now they can be completely open with each other - but it's going to be a nervous tic for a while (... and now I can see little things like when they're asleep, Utena has to lie with her back to the wall or away from Anthy. She hates that she has to, but she can't sleep otherwise. And Anthy does notice but never says anything. But then eventually one night, Utena just rolls over so Anthy is spooning her and that's the point where she finally stops getting jitters when Anthy's behind her).
The change to the line sounds fine.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-25 02:04 pm (UTC)A few decades down the line, I can't see Utena really wanting to go back as she'd expect everyone she knows to be gone except Akio (and I don't see her really wanting to see him). (Though now this has me wondering about a fanfic where like some years down the line Utena ends up getting a letter from Wakaba and it seems normal enough except... why was the "from" address within Ohtori Academy, oh no...) I can see Anthy being torn--knowing full well that unless something happened with the magic her brother is still there and holding some sway and fearing that, but at the same time she does still love him in a way so... but I don't think she'd be as surprised to see him unaging.
Nah, you were fine mentioning the movie! I'd actually been planning to watch it as I responded to your comment because I thought I should figure out what's finally going on there, and then I did a bit later on in the day. My viewing was a bit hampered by the video and audio refusing to sync up--didn't cause confusion anywhere, but it was annoying. Visually, it was pretty interesting, and I liked the scenes, but it felt like it relied too much on the series to give it meaning considering it's an AU. Like, I honestly can't imagine it having been received well at all if it had come out on its own, without the background of Utena already established. Watching it though I do get the themes and comments of several fanfics more--seems like it's popular to tie some of the movie's sentiments back into the series ("killing the prince", which I think you actually mentioned to me and it then made no sense to me because Utena was trying to be the prince all the way up to the end in the series--then watch the movie and aha!; the prince being "lord of the flies", which I encountered in a fanfic and it made sense to me from the series' context but at the same time I thought it was a peculiar particular phrase to use; the Final Fantasy AU I mentioned to you once with Aerith as Rose Bride seemed to be using a mash-up of series and movie, as Akio/Sephiroth was curiously absent up till the very end--until Cloud finds out about Aerith having been abused by him and that she's partly trapped by a fear of him even though he's been dead in the present time all along, at which point Sephiroth's spirit is manifested by her magic and attacks Cloud).
I do think though that even in the series it's not really about Utena rescuing Anthy-- like she really does intend to, and that's why Anthy gets the courage to leave, knowing she has a true friend she can actually go to, but both Anthy's betrayal and Anthy leaving on her own in the end demonstrate that Anthy had to choose to be free and break away from hopelessness. So while the movie gave her a more action-y thing to do, it didn't really feel that much different in the choices leading up to it: Utena was fighting for her, Utena encouraged her to leave, she was still scared to leave and it led to them being ...kind of...separated... car Utena, what and then she steps up. Like, I kind of like the movie because it shows her also helping Utena, even if the reason why she's helping Utena seems utterly nonsensical to me car Utena, but I think I like the series' role for her more because it shows that defiance isn't always about wielding a sword to fight or doing something cool, a lot of times it's as plain as saying "You're wrong, and I'm not putting up with this anymore" and walking out.
But yeah, the movie does seem ultimately better treated as a AU, even if some of the themes and comments are easy to work back into the series.
though does raise the interesting idea of what, if any, powers does Anthy have now? Is she still technically a witch, or...?
I am so glad to not be the only one confused by that, haha. I was also in the end wondering BUT WHAT ABOUT THE SWORDS? Like I first read fanfics that ignored them as if Anthy had broken free of those too and that felt right to me-- and then I started encountering fanfics where she was still always aware of them, having to avoid them and/or prevent them from targeting Utena...
I kind of like that idea of Utena lying with her back to the wall; of course I also ended up picturing her subconsciously wrapping herself in a kind of blanket cocoon (Anthy eventually tells her she's cold to at least ease the blanket silliness). And then yeah, at some point Utena just naturally does what seems more comfortable to her but hasn't happened up until then because of that lingering fear to be cuddled by Anthy and they both realize, they're okay.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-25 07:10 pm (UTC)Ooh! That is an interesting idea for Utena returning to Ohtori: discovering that despite what she assumed everyone she knew is trapped inside the school still. I was thinking on a tangent if this is how it always was, go into the school, get trapped in a ambiguous time that never advances while the world around them changes, but that's not entirely reconcilable with the idea that people are graduating and leaving (we hope), so Wakaba (and by extension the rest of the cast) are still inside due to Akio's reaction to losing Anthy - very much staying in his coffin, but taking the rest of the school in there with him. But yeah, otherwise going back there isn't going to have much of an appeal to Utena, but Anthy could be torn quite easily; he's likely there and still just as powerful, but he remains her seemingly only living relative - despite what he has done...
Ack! that's annoying for the sync issues, but at least you were able to watch it all. Haha - visually it is really nice and the animation is great - but yeah relied a bit too much on the series. I really remain torn on that as to whether it is better to know the series; I just kept having these clashes of characters in my head with the series depictions versus the film changes. I still need to read more Utena fanfics though; hadn't realised the film was that influential on them. Ah; I'm not sure you did actually mention the FF AU with Aeris as the Rose Bride in the end! I rambled about equating Anthy to Aeris for a fic like that once ages ago as a very vague idea I didn't have fully thought out - I didn't know someone had actually gone through with that one (intrigued now).
I'd agree in both its not really about Utena rescuing Anthy (and if she did rescue Anthy wouldn't that as good as Utena's intentions are just put Utena on the same page as the other duelists no matter how high-minded; it feels like Utena has to show her the way or give her a push, but Anthy has to make the choice to leave on her own). And true Anthy gets a more actiony thing... which... sort of more directly involved Utena. Yeah, coherency just breaks down with the car things (and suddenly you're not sure what film you are watching any more. Oh look, Shiori's a car. And Kozue. And *Wakaba* (though at least she changed back. Somehow. And, um, the other duelists are randomly good?)). Totally agree the series Anthy's defiance is much more meaningful with her simply refusing to co-operate and simply walking away - while it is nice to see her actively helping Utena leave... Did we have to have the car bit?
(a friend of mine insists on referring to the film as 'the film where the lesbians turn into cars' which is kind of annoyingly accurate)
Also glad I wasn't the only one wondering about the swords... I do like the idea that they're simply gone as well and it was all part and parcel of being the Rose Bride so that now she's walked away she's free of those too... Hmm. The other fanfics... sounds interesting but overly complicated - and for the idea that the school is surreal and stepping out into the real world is more mundane that seems an odd choice to have. Then again I suppose the fics could have the real world be just as weird, or have Anthy exist with all her powers and curse intact (which feels a little odd for the end of the series). I need to retain more Utena fanfic!
Glad the idea of Utena keeping her back to the wall works; and I like the idea of her wrapping herself into a blanket cocoon as well. And Utena may be twitchy at first around Anthy, but they will get there eventually.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-26 12:09 am (UTC)I was pretty sure I had mentioned the fic, because of the Utena parallels we were discussing (I think you also had like Zack as Touga and Cloud as Saionji? Or maybe reversed) but anyway, here's the link! What Lies Beneath. Now that I've looked again there actually is an AN stating that it's based on the Adolescence of Utena movie which explains several things. It's not exactly the best written but it's interesting for how they decided to do the crossover?
...I think I missed that Wakaba was a car. Thankfully. But yeah, randomly good duelists. XD
(a friend of mine insists on referring to the film as 'the film where the lesbians turn into cars' which is kind of annoyingly accurate)
I have to admit I looked at the visual of Utena and Anthy on the remains of the vehicle and went "SO THIS IS WHERE S-E GOT THE IDEA FOR LESBIAN MOTORCYCLE FROM". (And when I wasn't thinking that, I was wincing at the thought of how easily their freely flowing hair would realistically get snagged or caught in something and hurt like hell)
Hahaha, I just had that binge of post-series reunion fics to go off of--which of course, being about Utena and Anthy, usually touch somewhat on how the author thinks Anthy is post-series.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-26 08:31 am (UTC)Embarrassingly you might have mentioned that fic and I completely forgot about it! Oop. I found it in amongst the saved ones I have when I tried to archive it. Thank you for the link anyway; I'm not sure I'd have even found it again otherwise. I'll have a look at that when I've finished Beloved.
Wakaba the car... I missed this the first few times, but... she's the green jeep the other student council members are on when they rescue Anthy and Utena; there's a brief shot of the front of it and it has Wakaba stamped across the front of it.
HAHA! I never made that connection from Utena and Anthy at the end and the Shiva sisters! And yeah I was really distracted by just how close their hair was getting to the wheels and how horribly painful that would wind up.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-27 01:18 am (UTC)No worries! But yeah "What Lies Beneath" is fairly brief in each chapter, so I don't think it'd take very long to read.
Hahah, I think I just made the Shiva sisters connection because of so many jokes I heard about Snow's ride.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-27 11:40 am (UTC)I somehow avoided all the jokes about Snow's ride until recently (mostly as I think everyone I knew had pretty much given up on the FF series and I wanted to get the game finished before I got anywhere near the fandom)
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-27 04:36 pm (UTC)I think that was the tack they were taking, yeah. It's amusing to think of the staff having a brief hubbub over "where's the head teacher! where's the deputy! where's-- (you know, I don't know if they have PTA either. My impression of the school system is saying could go either way?)" and then a few months later they have that mess sorted out and then they're actually kind of happy to not have the acting chairman anymore. Too young, too flashy. And Akio himself is replaced...
mostly as I think everyone I knew had pretty much given up on the FF series
Every time I see something like this I'm like sad for about five seconds and then I think about my own reactions to the latest entries and it's like "well yeah I can see why" oh S-E.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-27 06:16 pm (UTC)Ah! Yeah, it is always disheartening to reflect when all the people I know who used to look forward to the new FF entrants don't anymore, or just don't go near them (and in some cases RPGs in general)... And then yeah, all too easy to remember reactions to the latest entries - oh SE. (hopefully be able to tackle the end of XIII-2 soon. I've spent a long while doing missions and leveling Serah and Noel to hopefully now get past Caius. And the mention of that Chocobo chick was really helpful! He gave me the hint and a good chunk of Crystarium points which'll help).
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-28 04:05 am (UTC)...And there was a plot point involving PTA! So it's likely not showing up in other anime as much since most school anime is about the teenagers, but it does exist in Japan, or something very similar anyway.
Ah! The wiki mentioned the crystarium points for finding the chick and its fragment; funny enough, I'd completely forgotten what the points were for. Glad it helped though! Yes, hopefully you'll be able to beat the end soon. And hopefully the Final Fantasy series will pick up again.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-28 05:57 pm (UTC)Haha - yeah I can't see the KareKano thing happening over here either - to try and get a couple to break up would require them doing something pretty major before their parents were called in like that...
And yep; XIII-2 now finished, just cuing up DLC episodes on Youtube (and things like the paradox endings)...
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-29 01:25 am (UTC)Hehe, have fun watching the DLC! I should probably watch the Snow DLC sometime myself; I've just watched parts of Sazh's, and Lightning's.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-29 01:06 pm (UTC)Have now caught up on the DLC! Chocolina seems somewhat of a paradox regardless since she and the Chocobo chick are there at the same point. To fit with the canon, it does still work as the chocobo chick does go with Sazh and Dahj as the exit Serendipity (...though that still begs the question of when and how she got separated from them to become Chocolina). Lighting's was interesting - though slightly odd. Given the somewhat bleak ending (and apparently SE were annoyed that people anticipated another game due to the 'To be Continued' caption (but seriously? They wanted to pretend that was the conclusion? It's clearly a setup to fix the world) - as that was meant to refer to the DLC. Okay, but the DLC ends at almost the same point the game does with Lightning turning into crystal. Unless they meant the hint she's at 500AF on her own... and that doesn't really help) I was anticipating more of a forward hint to Lightning Returns then we got.
I won't mention Snow's for now (his is more for the end of his DLC then the intro. Kinda cool to hear what Ultros sounds like). The paradox endings; I never knew those were even available - kind of fun though. That said when Snow bursts in to stop Alyssa was a bit niggly as apparently no one is going to comment on the very visible l'Cie brand (I think they found a fal'Cie in the Yaschas Massif so maybe this is the one Snow struck a deal with - though why he needed...), or that he has the Shiva sisters back again, or how he's time-traveling as well (I can see Sazh and Dahj winding up at 500AF due to Serendipity. Hope, Serah and Noel are all explained, but Snow? Is this a new l'Cie power? And I am wondering if NORA are still around as well - little improbable by that point) - but then paradox ending I suppose. Except the l'Cie brand was visible the last time Serah met him...
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-01 05:46 am (UTC)...if the chick got separated from Sazh and Dajh after that, wouldn't that mean Chocolina should know that Serah was going to die and they would fail in preventing Caius from killing the goddess? Or... whatever he was actually trying to do to save Yeul. I'm not pretending I remember much. XD
And oh SE's "to be continued" is so many shades of stupid.
lmfao I don't really mind spoilers in regards to anything XIII XD but anyway I think his fragments were supposed to imply Snow's BEEN hopping around in time quite a bit? Though whether it's his l'Cie power or just... something he was doing through the historia crux...? I really have no memory. XD
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-01 09:04 pm (UTC)...That's a good point! Chocolina should have know Serah was always going to die. Well, actually the time-travel in XIII-2 feels confused (mixture between closed loop and quantum/parallel worlds) so there is a way she might not. But yeah, I would have thought she'd know/be more worried about the imminent end of the world/Caius's absurdly confusing plot to save Yeul by destroying time (I'm glad this wasn't just me who was extremely unclear on what and how Caius's plan worked. It seemed like a stupider version of Ultimecia's; she wanted to destroy time but for her own ends. She wasn't trying to stop someone dying by... wiping out existence. Um... Caius? Are you *sure* you thought this scheme through?)
(yeah I only just played the game and the motivations are murky and weird. And I really can't get behind Noel/Yeul. Partly I think its the incredible lack of interaction between the two, but its also the really vague one-sidedness)
Ah! Well, one paradox end suggests Snow has been bouncing around casuality doing... something (with l'Cie powers and the Shiva sisters. No one even comments on how and why he has those. But Noel is left guarding Hope who's due to shortly be assassinated. He then jets off with Serah to do mighty deeds (okay she went with him. Still having difficulty with that pairing)). The Snow DLC on the other hand has him remain in the Coliseum, seemingly hanging out with Ultros, Gilgamesh, Jihl et al (I am... kind of impressed they resisted sticking Sephiroth in as well) - though when he says goodbye to Serah she tells him if he takes too long she'll come looking for him. Which is better for the two of them, but annoying that that is locked to the DLC.
(Also; I'm curious as to what the historia crux actually is? It seems decidedly artificial and constructed, but by who and how...)
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-05 04:14 am (UTC)Aaaaaand...haha, yeah. Caius' plan. In part his objective seems to simply be "Yeul doesn't have to die anymore". Which doesn't mean she has to live, either... because Valhalla is a place of pure possibility. So I get the sense that Caius was just kind of crazy in the brain anyway and what he's chasing after would kind of like be if SQUALL (or some other normal human) wanted Time Compression to occur so they themselves never had to experience loss or pain in any way again.
And yeah, Yeul honestly is so childlike that it never seems like a romantic affection from her to Noel (honestly with how much she hung around Caius anyway while he's doing his crazy thing, it often seemed like she was onboard with that ship instead, if on any...)
Well, Serah does love Snow still. But yeah, his paradox ending is kind of random in him just barging in to be the hero.
...I have no idea if the historia crux is even remotely explained in-game, come to think of it.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-05 09:05 pm (UTC)Haha - yeah I think Caius just was crazy, as making Yeul no longer suffer by making sure she wouldn't live at all... is just weird. And yeah Yeul's youthfulness/child-likeness reeeeeally makes the Noel/Yeul ship difficult to buy into (the wikia claims she ranges from ages 14 to 17 depending on time-zone, but I really never noticed an apparent change in her character design), and that total absence of reciprocated affection from her to Noel (not that the game was swimming in affection the other way). And yes, she spends so long with the game's villain (and apparently can't ever say to Caius "This is craziness, please don't destroy time, I really don't want that"), that ship would seem to have more going for it (I think really Caius cares for Yeul more then Noel).
Heh - as far as I can see the Historia Crux isn't explained in-game at all. The wikia doesn't help much - or at least what it is/why it looks like that - apparently the ability to traverse it comes from Etro, but beyond that...
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-06 04:18 am (UTC)that total absence of reciprocated affection from her to Noel (not that the game was swimming in affection the other way)
I think the game was pretty clear about Noel's affection for her, it's just... he seems to be making it out as romantic, and at the same time he's so focused solely on protecting her that it's like, "okay, if they had grown up NOT being the last two people in the world, in a normal situation, would he view her as being like a younger sister"? Like they're love interests purely because they have hormones and they're the only ones they know and Yeul, yeah, doesn't really seem interested, probably because she knows she's going to die anyway so oops. ...I guess it kind of goes back to what we were talking about Snow/Serah, the feeling that they didn't really choose each other.
...Yeah I'm not really sure why Yeul doesn't tell Caius to just stop. And considering what Caius is doing I think he definitely has to care more for Yeul than Noel--in the end, his plan involves causing Noel pain in at least one way, by forcing him to kill.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-06 11:09 am (UTC)That's true, it was Noel insisting on the romantic angle, but by action it was more the need to protect Yeul in the far future. Definitely agree that in a normal situation they'd be more sibling like; and that they're love interests due to lack of other people/hormones. You're right; like Snow and Serah we never see them choose to be with each other, they just stated are.
And Yeul not asking Caius to stop was just weird - and yes! it really does seem like Caius has to care for Yeul more given what he is trying to do, and that his plan requires Noel being caused pain (though... then I get confused again. As seemingly before Caius went on his destroy time plan (it could admittedly have been there before), he wanted Noel to kill him so he could become the guardian - and that required piercing his heart. Which is what ends up happening but then destroyed the world. Would it have worked differently if it were voluntarily/Noel prepared to become the new guardian? Or was it always a trick and Caius wanted Noel to kill him to destroy time then?)
Switching topics entirely; I looked at the video for the Divine Task. And... wow. I know you said you weren't looking forward to LR anymore, but I hadn't anticipated anything like that. I'm really not looking forward to it either - I feel the need to play it for completeness, but I'm not going to rush to get hold of it. It was just... what is going on anymore? Lightning is saving the souls of the dead? Noel wants her dead? (we still have QTEs? Urgh) She was given new powers by god (not Etro apparently. Well admittedly she is now dead. I think)?
But yeah, it's just... odd. I was thinking about it, and it feels the major problem with the XIII series now is how little the games have to do with each other; the first game was about breaking humanity out of Cocoon and letting them out into the larger world, removing the reliance on fal'Cie, Lightning learning that her sister has to live her own life (etc etc). But then the second game is about time-travel, Lightning made into a guardian of Etro, Yeul, Caius, the fall of Cocoon. Aside from taking place after the first game, it doesn't feel like a sequel. It uses the same characters and settings but seemingly so few themes and ideas. And the third game is different again; now Lightning is guiding lost souls? Time has stopped on Gran Pulse? Snow and Noel are seemingly now antagonists...
XIII-2 feels like it should have been about adapting to life on Gran Pulse and the rise of the new society freed from fal'Cie, the difficulties they face, the people who can't cope with the new world, things like that. Not sure its a good basis for a game, but that would have felt more like a sequel. Its hard not to compare back to the Compilation, which has numerous issues, but the common thread is Shinra and what they did and its after-effects which touches on all the elements of the story (even if DoC is somewhat forced to connect). And maybe XIII would work better if the fal'Cie were more of a component of XIII-2...
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-06 03:22 pm (UTC)I want... to say that Caius had wanted Noel to take the Heart of Etro and become the immortal guardian, thus why there could only be one of them (because he'd die afterward?) ...but then my memory is really vague and, looking at the wiki entry for Caius, no, he really was just being a massive ball of crazy and jerkishness to Noel: he wanted Noel to destroy the heart and bring time to a stop that way. His plan always involved using Noel in a way that Noel didn't want to be used, to then be screwed over because he wouldn't even get to protect his Yeul, neither of them would be alive. To be fair to Caius he was long crazy by the time of Noel and Noel's Yeul. ... but then on the note of relationships, the fact that Noel looks up to this guy so much makes it really seem like "Oh, yeah, he really didn't get to know enough people growing up to have any halfway-decent 'this person is as crazy as a bag of cats' sense."
I am just going to side-eye both of Noel's starting relationships forever. HE WAS REALLY DEPRIVED OF PEOPLE, OK.
Ahaha the Divine Task trailer. To be honest I was like "no" from the instant Lightning went "IT WAS GOD" like a fanatic. Which is really somewhat weird because I've known for a while now that she was tied to Bhunivelze (sp, and yes, not Etro)... but it's like, even with XIII-2 I knew a Lightning roleplayer who had an issue with preview stuff showing Lightning serving Etro and hoping there was some justification--which I agreed with on there being a need for--because of how strongly she opposed the idea of being used by the fal'Cie from the very beginning in XIII. XIII-2 didn't really come through on justification in attitude, but then again Lightning was also pretty much stuck anyway because lol no leaving Valhalla. But being Etro's champion didn't get her ANYWHERE, it just took her away from Serah. (and like, what life she would have had outside of Serah, but lol Lightning is really like Snow in the "Serah serah SERAH" business anyway. Just less vocal.) The whole of XIII-2 is like Lightning you were not happy at all with any of this and where did it even get anyone. \o_O/ So then we get Lightning Returns and "IT WAS GOD" and oh sure let's hup to divine tasks again and it's just she was not cool with this in the original game, gods/goddesses/higher beings have pretty much consistently screwed her over, her characterization in Dissidia was not the best but even then included her being pretty aloof about gods and wary about being used by them so it's like. Light. Don't sound so reverent about "god" please. eeugh.
I can see her going along with it given the possible stakes (Serah being erased like she never even existed? UNACCEPTABLE) but for the love of all things I would hope she's being ultra skeptical about who she's actually serving and for what purpose and that's just not coming through in the trailer. Similar story with Hope as another one of the l'Cie.
Then again since he named that structure Bhunivelze I won't be surprised if he's supposed to have had some sort of connection even in XIII-2Noel wants her dead
NOEL, WHO IS SO SET AGAINST KILLING ANYONE FOR ANY REASON THAT CAIUS HAS TO GRAB HIS BLADE AND FORCE HIM.
/sooooooooooooooooob
Actually I can kind of see this turn for Noel in the aftermath of, having "killed" Caius and thus the goddess, he's so desperate to fix that that he is willing to cross his moral horizon again. Like, I'm pretty sure he would tear himself apart with guilt on it too if he succeeded, because he likes Lightning and he doesn't want to kill anyone, but it seems he's been convinced that this is the only way to remotely fix what he "wrecked" in the first place (THIS IS REALLY ALL CAIUS' FAULT, GDIT. NOEL STOP BEING STUPID).
But really both Noel and Snow are coming off as mildly "brainwashed and crazy" here and it's like. ... this is really hard because I can like 'brainwashed and crazy' or 'manipulated into doing something dumb', both stemming from an existing emotional issue (which haha Noel and Snow certain have), as an incident in canon. When it so far seems to be the driving force for a lot of the conflict...that's a bit different? I don't know how to put it that well in words.
Aaaand yeah each game is veering so wildly from theme to theme it's like sigh. I can kind of see them wanting to avoid that build for XIII-2 that you described because I realized a good portion of that sounds like X-2, which has been pretty panned--although with X-2 it was never those issues that were the problem, more like... how corny the writing was.... they would probably have inevitably felt a great need to throw in some big new threat, haha. But at least it wouldn't have retconned XIII's ending. And yeah, it's puzzling fal'Cie don't play more of a part in XIII-2 after the first game.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-06 06:00 pm (UTC)That first bit about Caius wanting Noel to take the Heart of Etro; that was at least allegedly what he wanted before he went to Valhalla, but then...yeah it reads like he always wanted Noel to destroy the heart, and was just being jerkish the entire time. So Caius was always crazy as long as Noel has known him and wanted to stop time. ...other then he is crazy and jerkish, was there really anything to stop him stabbing himself (like he does at the end of XIII-2) well before that? And yeah, Noel just can't have realised Caius was crazy as a bag of cats due to lack of other people to compare the maniac to.
...it is then remarkable that Noel can cope with meeting Lightning, Serah, the members of NORA etc etc given his only companions were apparently a madman who wanted him to kill him and a girl who knew she was going to die and soon.
The trailer! Oh, yeah, as soon as Lightning said "It was god," I couldn't take the rest of it with any degree of seriousness. My first thought was that being so vague as "god" when previously everything centred around Etro was weird enough to start with, but that she's tied to Bhunivelze as well... and Yes! given how infuriated she was with servitude to the fal'Cie in XIII that she would willingly serve Etro makes no sense. XIII-2 never attempted to justify the mind-set, but as you say, its not like she has a lot of choice - and its either do Etro's bidding or watch time be destroyed (though... seemingly all you really needed to do was put Caius in a box (/put that box in another box, mail it to yourself and when it arrives; HAHA! Smash it with a hammer! It's brilliant, brilliant! ...or to save on postage (got carried away there)) and bury him somewhere as he's immortal and as long as he's alive then he can't destroy time. And yeah, being Etro's champion wasn't exactly good for her/separated her from Serah and then began the process that would in the end kill Serah.
Oh; yeah Lightning really is almost as bad as Snow with her Serah obsession (I read the XIII episode i novella which was interesting if not really advancing anything/feeding into the retcon, and started on episode Zero (before getting fed up of the pdf version I had which was putting footers through the text so I've been re-copying the text from the blog that translated it to put into a nicer form) - and there's so much of Lightning deciding she knows what's best for Serah and Snow isn't it. And I think one big issue is that from what I've read, those events needed to be in the game as they help setup the characters so much better. Well, Vanille and Fang's sections maybe not, but Lightning, Snow, Serah, Dahj and Sazh - yes), but doesn't shout about it as often. With that fact that Lightning's attitude has changed so much, I would have thought there would be more complaints about XIII-2's changes to her given her desire to operate on her own, not with their powers and not at their behest. And yeah, the reverance... not good.
True, if the situation allows her to rescue Serah, I can see why she would agree, but YES she needed to be skeptical, needs to have a plan in case it turns out this is trickery/it's not god but a cocoon fal'Cie that somehow survived that is exacting a revenge. Wait, Hope's a l'Cie again as well? This feels like the writing staff weren't listening to each other again or did everyone forget the magic without l'Cie branding in XIII-2?
...ouch. Yeah how did I miss that? Noel wanting Lightning dead is a 180 from last time. But yeah, maybe if he is desperate to fix his role in the end of time he can break his morals. But yeah; it's all Caius's fault Noel! He tricked you, and when you resisted took the act out of your hands! I think I know what you mean about brainwashed and crazy being an interesting idea - from emotional issues. Its like if they were adamant that doing something contrary to their morals could get back the one thing they wanted (they both presumably want Serah back/Noel wants Yeul/the end of time altered), or they've somehow spent so long stewing over the situation/focussed blame on someone who reappears again (this was partly how Evangelion 3.33 ran), or they missed certain events/only found a distorted version/have outright been brainwashed... then yeah that works. But if I read right; that works as a plot-point/a misunderstanding until the protagonist can say, "wait, hold up. That's not what happened/what I said/what I meant" and try to get through to them (and this is where for me Evangelion 3.33 became unbearable as not only did no one explain Shinji's "crime" he wasn't concious of what he did do in the first place, so he was being shouted at for something he didn't know he did by people who refused to tell him why they were furious. That was not entertaining in the slightest), but when it looks to be the basis of regular attacks by Noel on Lightning/the reasoning for Snow's new found dislike of Lightning and this is going to get prolonged through the game... That's not good. It also suggests that Lightning might take the "I don't have to explain myself to you/I don't understand what you're on about but for plot convenience will not voice the pertinent questions at the pertinent time to the pertinent people" stance which would be aggravating.
Fair point on avoiding the rebuilding of the world like X-2 did - but yes, that setup wasn't the reason why people objected to X-2! And yeah, they'd need a Vegna-gun/other new big threat, but would at least have left XIII's ending in place and not clumsily ret-conned it as they did. And the lack of theme consistency is frustrating. And the lack of mentions of fal'Cie is odd. Actually, from what I've read of episode Zero, I do have to wonder if there aren't more fal'Cie on Pulse somewhere (especially as there is this frustrating feel (partly due to how XIII-2 was designed) that Gran Pulse is... small. Or at least we only see a very finite portion of a gigantic planet.
(oh, don't know if you heard, but the X|X-2 remaster is apparently getting an additional epilogue. ...really not sure how I feel about that/think that's necessary. I am wondering if the re-release will include the additional X epilogue where Rikku brings Yuna the sphere....)
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-11 04:29 am (UTC)Noooot that I know of. Maybe if the heart came with some kind of "you cannot kill yourself" curse that required using another's hand (which Caius...sort of does at the end of XIII-2; it's definitely him killing himself, he just managed to screw up Noel by involving him in the process), but having that sort of curse would also seem a bit too controlling of Etro, who largely as a goddess seems to screw people up by being impulsive, not by any intentional harm.
And yeah that Noel copes with other people at all is amazing. XD He DID have other company besides Yeul and Caius at first, it's just...yeah, they all died off, and had been dead for a while. I'm surprised he's not clingy or anything--though on second thought maybe he is, considering how quickly he takes Lightning's request to find Serah and then cares for Serah. Hmm.
haha I am amused that the "It was god" was both the NOPE point for us XD I think part of it too might be that Final Fantasy is usually so humanistic/positive of humanity being able to triumph on its own in the end; sure, in the earlier Final Fantasies there is a sort of divine approval of the heroes' quest implied in the crystals, but from at least V up (I seriously cannot remember enough of IV to say) a lot of the takeaway seems to be "humanity can overcome this through their will". Final Fantasy V, stuff keeps getting worse, up to everything being sucked into a void (EXCEPT FOR MY PARTY--I still need to figure out what's going on there, hopefully tomorrow), the whole game is pretty much a downward slide with brief hope spots that are then like "gotcha!", but the party keeps on trucking, and this is what's credited with saving the day in the end. Final Fantasy VI, humanity recovers after the apocalypse to retain hope and fight back for what they love. Final Fantasy VII, there's a bit of "higher power approval" implied in the Cetra and the Planet and Holy but so much of the plot movement rests in AVALANCHE going "hey. we're doing this because we think it's right", up to the very end this is a point that they're doing this for their reasons, and it's also a point that humanity has quite a bit of effect on the Planet. Final Fantasy VIII knocks heavily on destiny, but at the same time they have a whole friendship speech by Laguna and if it weren't for small mentions of Hyne you wouldn't know there's any divinities about. Final Fantasy IX Zidane's actual character quote is "You don't need a reason to help people", you don't need any special reason to be a hero other than knowing right and wrong. FFX we're overthrowing the religion. FFXII we're overthrowing the things that are closest to gods the party knows and even the villain's plot involved defying those guys. FF XIII hahaha nope we don't want the Maker, nope we're side-eyeing the nearest higher powers we have and realizing they cause a lot of our misery, human will power to make our own miracles is the answer this is even a character thing, Vanille has to realize she can't just pray and hope some higher power will intervene she's gotta make it happen herself. Odd deus ex machinas in the end aside, that's the theme they were at least trying to deliver.
....so XIII: LR "I WAS GIVEN A MISSION BY GOD" Light no. noooooooooooo.
They...might reverse this in the end? But so far as it stands it seems like not just bad characterization and not matching up to Lightning's experiences with higher powers but kind of a weakening on that general theme (now we need a higher power to be saved). At least to me.
/put that box in another box, mail it to yourself and when it arrives; HAHA! Smash it with a hammer! It's brilliant, brilliant!
Emperor's New Groove? lol
And I think one big issue is that from what I've read, those events needed to be in the game as they help setup the characters so much better.
YES. EXACTLY. This is why I'm frustrated with how the game shows Sazh and then "oh. btw his most awesome moment is actually in the novella." e____e
Wait, Hope's a l'Cie again as well?
Ah, nope. Bad communication by me. Basically I meant that I thought any of the l'Cie from the first game (and I meant Hope as one of them) would be kind of leery at accepting a divine power at their word given Dysley. Granted Snow still got himself branded again so YMMV, but I always figured that was more desperation to have the ability to do stuff than "hey, these guys are cool! :D"
Though Snow's condition in XIII-2 pretty much shows they could still make Hope a l'Cie in LR without contradicting themselves, just say he didn't get the magic either! ...It'd be kind of lame though.
And yeah, I think you got it right; a fight between Noel and Lightning or Snow and Lightning as one brief conflict could be entertaining, but as something prolonged could get wearing especially if it'd be easily cleared up by communication. The upshot is, remembering how we both thought Atlas would be more important than it actually was in XIII-2, there's a good chance the conflict with both Noel and Snow is being played up because of how dramatic fighting a former ally is, and while these will both still be dramatic sequences when they happen in game, they won't be as prolonged/plot-crucial as they seem now. There's that possibility. ...The downside of this is that I'm pretty sure I did see it stated somewhere that it's multiple struggles against at least one of them and one of the screencaps with Hope suggests that Lightning is going to have to deal with not being a favorite of Snow's for at least some time (he's noting that security around where Snow is is running high so she's not likely to meet him--which suggests the security was set against her). gdit, Snow, still with the steelguard.
There are at least some fal'Cie on Pulse given Snow's fal'Cie (which apparently is Cactuar?? haha) but... yeah. Since they are alive there, they could have been integrated more--and the world of XIII-2 IS made to feel so very, very small.
I heard a bit about a new scene for X|X-2, but didn't realize it was an epilogue. To be honest, I don't really have a clue what sort of thing they'd add for more...conclusiveness, idek.
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Date: 2013-07-11 06:45 pm (UTC)Haha - fair point, there were the other people who dissolve to paradox if you uncover them in 700AF (that sequence actually always plays weirdly for me. Serah can't see Mog, or know he's there, but trusts that he is. I can accept she takes it on faith he's there. But you trigger the paradox uncovering in the same way, so logically shouldn't Serah be reckoning that if this works on command at her instigation that Mog is definitely present but somehow out of step with her?). I suppose it might explain why Noel is so eager to comply with Lightning's request/sticks with Serah so closely/causes all that ambiguity, but then it never extends past the Farron sisters. I suppose it might be bewildering to have so many new people around, but maybe he should have been clingier with everyone (much to NORA's bemusement at their suspicion of him, but they can't get rid of him. And he talkes about EVERYTHING and ANYTHING).
That is an excellent point about the general FF theme of being positive humanity can triumph on its own. The specific example that came easiest was oddly from XII where Ashe defies the god-like beings, but you've nicely highlighted how its true on all the others (VII is close with Holy/The Planet being the ultimate saving force, but that couldn't happen until Avalanche went to the Planet core and defeated Sephiroth). I do like the summaries! (on that note, were you able to get back into the N-zone? And Geomancers are awesome! (I'd been dubious about the class too, but they are amazingly effective)). FFIV I think did keep the same theme for the most part; in the end it did come down to just the party in a one on one fight with the villain with no last second special powers or outside help (I'm not totally sure though, as Cecil's conversion to a paladin is very much a more powerful force re-doing his class, though that's pretty early on all things considered. Everyone else is under their own steam though). And yeah, LR is the first to apparently throw that out (and indeed. Etro interfered - though like in VII the party needed to do a great deal of work first, and seemingly things the supernatural forces couldn't).
It is possible they might reverse it, but there seemed to be some weird implications from the trailer; like what looked like a church which gave me the feel of a hub of operations for some reason. I would concur it seems a fundamental change to how the other games operate, and Lightning's experiences with those higher powers have been pretty much universally negative (she'd have some thanks for Etro for breaking the focus completion issue/removing their brands rather then scarring them - but I think it'd end there)
Heh - yep, shameless Emperor's new Groove referencing (I was going to say I just love any part of the film with Yzma and Kronk in it, then I remember the rest of the film has other inspired madness, so basically the whole thing)
I finished the novella! And wow; the start of the game makes more sense - its not even just the characters are better introduced, its certain motives make sense. It's been a while since I played XIII, but I honestly can't remember if Sazh ever mentioned the reason he got on the Pulse train was to fulfill Dahj's focus for him, or that Vanille just wanted to go home (or that most of the cast almost met Sazh/each other under different conditions). Or even other things like Rosch, Jihl, Rydgea and Cid having actually characterful moments. Especially those first two where it felt like there was more to them then the recurring villains they got painted as (/frustratingly cut down as Jihl was. It really felt she would have a larger role), and they were more then the amoral kill everything military the game presented them as (admittedly that might be a reach for Rosch given he doesn't get a lot to do, but he was playing with Dahj - or at least implied to, which does indicate there was more to him). And anything more on Cid was really welcome (its a slight pity there wasn't a mid-game chapter for Fang, Cid and Snow on the Lindblum to boost that a bit), as again I'd pretty much forgotten if he had a goal/why he was even helping the l'Cie in the first place. This really is such a flaw with the game (or possibly not, but given the difficulty of accessing the novella officially) that *now* I'm really wanting to revisit it armed with all that knowledge and watch how things develop (and understand NORA and how they're a microcosm of the storyline/Cid's struggle - they don't want to rely on Cocoon anymore so are trying to become self-reliant).
Ah! Tis okay. Yeah, I would hope the XIII l'Cie would be so wary of a higher power and accepting them at their word - and heh. Yeah Snow's reasoning probably was he needed his powers back to track down Lightning... Heh. Yeah Hope could be a l'Cie too, just without magic (and the l'Cie brand in XIII-2 does seem to have slowed Snow's aging massively). Not a good idea as you say... (thinking about it, there is still so much unknown about the l'Cie and the brands. The implications in XIII always seemed to have the focus as being relatively short-term. In as little as days or weeks for completion. But for Snow that focus must have a massive time-span on it for him to be still going 500 to 1000 years after being branded. Maybe that's why he's not aging...)
Good point; Noel and Snow might wind up like Atlas; seemingly plot important but in the end very neglected. Though; I did see that same note about recurring struggles (I think it was Noel) which doesn't really instill confidence. And yeah that Snow has put guards up to precent her getting to him. Damn him and his Sentinel paradigm!
Haha - yeah I read that Snow's fal'Cie this time around is Cactuar. And... um... sorry SE? Are we supposed to take this seriously? Cactuars are damnably nasty, but not the most elegant, fantastical or godly of the summon spells (which seems the partial basis for them). Its just trying to imagine the branding moment of XIII but with a giant Cactuar at the centre just reads as hilarious (okay, so the fal'Cie might not look like a giant Cactuar, but in the absence of seeing it, what else are we going to think?). And is there some reason Snow got branded at the same point? And I'm still stuck on Cactuar of all things. So many other fal'Cie to choose from! (and I should go look at the Fragments Before in a bit more detail)
Yeah, I'm not sure what they would add as an epilogue to X-2; the get Tidus back ending seemed a decent point to leave that pair on (flashing forward a few years sounds like it would be a mistake - as I don't think we need to see Tidus and Yuna's kids which is unfortunately likely). I'm also wondering how it'll play given X-2 is setup so you can't get the best ending the first time (and I never managed fairly and just watched it on Youtube) so does it play automatically or do you need the best ending from X-2 first? This feels like it might be an unwelcome Compilation-like addition to those games; altering something unnecessarily/making the ambiguous future now certain. We shall see though...