"What of Eurydice?"
Jun. 17th, 2013 09:56 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
raajThe memory of Anthy out of reach, outside of Utena's ability to help, dangling in the air as her body was pierced by countless swords, is still fresh in mind. Months have passed, and Utena keeps putting one foot forward, but her heart and mind are stretching out to cover a distant expanse.
She doesn't know where Anthy is. Still the Rose Bride? Still the sacrifice? So pierced by hate that she thinks she has to be another person's tool?
Utena is not afraid of the world, and she makes certain to stay in it, in this new school. She wants for Anthy to be able to find know this world isn't one to be afraid of because she can meet her in it.
But, in the end, Anthy had slipped away--no. She had LET Anthy slip away. Why should the other girl trust her as a prince, then? As a protector? She'd tried so hard, and yet not been quite enough.
Her mind turns in circles until it has done a full rotation, pointing back to where it came from, and Utena finds herself staring down a transfer form to request acceptance to Ohtori Academy.
Going back means more duels, if the revolution is still being sought after. It means more pain, if Anthy continue to be the Rose Bride. --But of course it means more pain, because Anthy suffers every moment she is the Rose Bride.
Utena sits down with the transfer form and steadily, aching, fills it out, every moment remembering the pain of those million swords. Her penmanship is as smooth as her finest swordstroke. Her teachers likely would have been surprised to see it.
She wonders if Akio will kill her, should she go back, but maybe he'll try to seduce her first. More likely, her request will be denied outright and she'll have to live with the regret of having failed Anthy.
What Utena wasn't expecting was for the secretary's desk to suddenly be vacated, the chair swinging just slightly. How could that be? She'd never heard the secretary leave.
"Utena."
Her head snaps up in shock--and she almost turns around, but then reminds herself she shouldn't be so surprised. Of course Anthy might be here. This office itself was connected to Ohtori Academy. But to be discovered like this, for Anthy to be here like this...Utena could not be sure what to expect. Was Anthy here under Akio's direction? She had to be. Why would she be here otherwise? Then whatever she said, Utena could not take it to heart. For both their sakes. This is the beginning of another round.
She keeps her head pointed away, trying to find her composure. "Long time no see, Himemiya. Have you been all right?"
"Mm. But you don't seem so well, Utena."
"Really? I'm just put out that that secretary's disappeared to who-knows-where..."
"Perhaps she had somewhere to be."
Utena knew enough now to consider the possibility of Anthy giving the woman somewhere to be.
"Have you heard the legend of Eurydice?"
"Eurydice?" Leave it to Anthy to ask a strange question. Eurydice is a strange name, too. "I can't say I have..."
"I suppose her husband is the better known one. A gentle player of the lyre, Orpheus," and this foreign name Utena does vaguely recognize as it comes curled from Anthy's lips. "The poor man ventured down into the underworld to retrieve her. His touch on the string, keen with grief, was such that he lulled the hound of Hades to sleep, and the god himself was moved by the song. He agreed to Orpheus' request to let his wife return to the realm of the living, on one condition. She would follow behind him, and he must never look back at her, until they were both fully within the lands of the living again.
"Of course, the story is a tragedy."
Her fingers twitch, or her hands loosen; she's not sure exactly how she moved, but the form has fallen through her hands to the floor. Utena doesn't move, doesn't bend to pick them up. She can't. Doing so might chance a look back at Anthy, only to see nothing but a shed skin of fabric left behind by its vanished owner. Except--that's too simple. It can't be her task is as simple as not looking at Anthy, whose words have reassured her so far that she is here.
...Here, in the transfer offices. Utena's heart grows cold at the thought. Perhaps this has been a test all along, and she has already failed, looking back to the school with doubt that Anthy had emerged from her coffin.
"Anthy...don't tell me..."
"Utena." A hand snakes onto her arm, and Utena startles in surprise, but still she forces herself to not turn around; some part of her still grasps to the hope that she can salvage a chance by not looking back physically. "This tale is always told from Orpheus' point of view. But what of his wife? What of Eurydice?"
Anthy's arm turns to catch Utena under the shoulder, pinning her ever so lightly into place. She has to fight not to tense, not to turn around. She doesn't mean to let her throat tighten either, but it happens too quickly for her to stop. It feels like a trap she doesn't want to escape.
"What of Eurydice?" Anthy asks again, her tone smooth and deep.
"She was let down," Utena answers. "He didn't save her. She followed him all that way... I'm sure she had many hopes. But he couldn't be her prince. Wouldn't she hate him for it?" Do you hate me, that I couldn't be yours?
It sounds like dread confirmation when Anthy leans into her shoulder with a small chuckle, and for a split-second Utena expects a blade in her side to drive the point of failure home one last time.
Then there is wetness on her back, and Utena arches in surprise. "Himemiya?" It's a whisper with so little breath behind it. In an instant she whirls around, forgetting the thought of a test, the fear of a blade, only believing that her friend is hurt. She catches herself just as she goes to hug the other girl-- but then she does anyway. If looking back was the test, she's failed. She's failed so many times over. How could she look away from Anthy?
At least for this instant, her friend feels real and substantial. Here with her, and not just the empty cloth of a dress. There is the warmth of skin to feel, the weight of long, thick hair.
"Utena, you would comfort me even now?" Anthy murmurs. "I have been Eurydice. I have waited, waited, waited in my coffin, never truly believing I would be rescued. And I drew you deeper and deeper into an underworld of magic and deceit. But still, even when you knew all the dangers, you came in deeper still to save me. All I had to do to be free was follow you. But I didn't give you the smallest sign that I was behind you, following. So for me, you looked back into a nightmare once more." She lifts her head up, and her face is one that stuns Utena, as it's so unlike the mild girl who tended the roses: there are tears in her eyes, yet a small smile that is at the same time twisted up, thorned against any retorts that might come her way. She's not wearing her glasses. "I think, Miss Utena, if Eurydice hated anyone, it was herself. For putting someone she loved through a nightmare, and for not making the slightest move to reassure them that the efforts they'd gone through weren't in vain."
"But-- you said it was a tragedy," Utena says. She feels like she's teetering, not knowing how to take Anthy's words. Well, that's one thing that hasn't changed, then. "I-- Orpheus..."
"Utena," Anthy interrupts, and reaches up a hand to her cheek. Belatedly, Utena realizes she's been crying herself. "Did you think you were Orpheus? You bargained with no one."
***
I didn't know how to handle the Utena-sama (or san) / Utena / Miss Utena myself. Miss Utena felt too stiff to do every single time, Utena too casual, honorifics were kind of ech for both mixing languages and because I'm not even 100% sure what would be most appropriate for Anthy, I think I blanked if she used something different at the end.
Then there's the setup in general. To be honest most of this comes from the talk of coffins and me having had Orpheus' legend more on the brain for months and months now thanks to an interesting game called "Don't look back" (which I haven't actually beaten--attempted, but not beaten--but watched a youtube playthrough of). And then the fact that Orpheus legend really IS always looked at from the view of Orpheus, so it seemed kind of fun to flip it around: how did Eurydice feel about what happened?
Plus it seemed weird that it took months and months for Anthy to actually leave. Utena definitely sparked something in her, but maybe it took a while to actually manifest as resolve. ...Which, I can see as if Utena does remember the school and all, that being well enough time for her to become truly convinced she had completely failed Anthy given the tone of her comments after Anthy slipped away and the way she pretty much had a heroic bsod after losing the duel to Touga. So. ...That's how the fic got writ.
She doesn't know where Anthy is. Still the Rose Bride? Still the sacrifice? So pierced by hate that she thinks she has to be another person's tool?
Utena is not afraid of the world, and she makes certain to stay in it, in this new school. She wants for Anthy to be able to find know this world isn't one to be afraid of because she can meet her in it.
But, in the end, Anthy had slipped away--no. She had LET Anthy slip away. Why should the other girl trust her as a prince, then? As a protector? She'd tried so hard, and yet not been quite enough.
Her mind turns in circles until it has done a full rotation, pointing back to where it came from, and Utena finds herself staring down a transfer form to request acceptance to Ohtori Academy.
Going back means more duels, if the revolution is still being sought after. It means more pain, if Anthy continue to be the Rose Bride. --But of course it means more pain, because Anthy suffers every moment she is the Rose Bride.
Utena sits down with the transfer form and steadily, aching, fills it out, every moment remembering the pain of those million swords. Her penmanship is as smooth as her finest swordstroke. Her teachers likely would have been surprised to see it.
She wonders if Akio will kill her, should she go back, but maybe he'll try to seduce her first. More likely, her request will be denied outright and she'll have to live with the regret of having failed Anthy.
What Utena wasn't expecting was for the secretary's desk to suddenly be vacated, the chair swinging just slightly. How could that be? She'd never heard the secretary leave.
"Utena."
Her head snaps up in shock--and she almost turns around, but then reminds herself she shouldn't be so surprised. Of course Anthy might be here. This office itself was connected to Ohtori Academy. But to be discovered like this, for Anthy to be here like this...Utena could not be sure what to expect. Was Anthy here under Akio's direction? She had to be. Why would she be here otherwise? Then whatever she said, Utena could not take it to heart. For both their sakes. This is the beginning of another round.
She keeps her head pointed away, trying to find her composure. "Long time no see, Himemiya. Have you been all right?"
"Mm. But you don't seem so well, Utena."
"Really? I'm just put out that that secretary's disappeared to who-knows-where..."
"Perhaps she had somewhere to be."
Utena knew enough now to consider the possibility of Anthy giving the woman somewhere to be.
"Have you heard the legend of Eurydice?"
"Eurydice?" Leave it to Anthy to ask a strange question. Eurydice is a strange name, too. "I can't say I have..."
"I suppose her husband is the better known one. A gentle player of the lyre, Orpheus," and this foreign name Utena does vaguely recognize as it comes curled from Anthy's lips. "The poor man ventured down into the underworld to retrieve her. His touch on the string, keen with grief, was such that he lulled the hound of Hades to sleep, and the god himself was moved by the song. He agreed to Orpheus' request to let his wife return to the realm of the living, on one condition. She would follow behind him, and he must never look back at her, until they were both fully within the lands of the living again.
"Of course, the story is a tragedy."
Her fingers twitch, or her hands loosen; she's not sure exactly how she moved, but the form has fallen through her hands to the floor. Utena doesn't move, doesn't bend to pick them up. She can't. Doing so might chance a look back at Anthy, only to see nothing but a shed skin of fabric left behind by its vanished owner. Except--that's too simple. It can't be her task is as simple as not looking at Anthy, whose words have reassured her so far that she is here.
...Here, in the transfer offices. Utena's heart grows cold at the thought. Perhaps this has been a test all along, and she has already failed, looking back to the school with doubt that Anthy had emerged from her coffin.
"Anthy...don't tell me..."
"Utena." A hand snakes onto her arm, and Utena startles in surprise, but still she forces herself to not turn around; some part of her still grasps to the hope that she can salvage a chance by not looking back physically. "This tale is always told from Orpheus' point of view. But what of his wife? What of Eurydice?"
Anthy's arm turns to catch Utena under the shoulder, pinning her ever so lightly into place. She has to fight not to tense, not to turn around. She doesn't mean to let her throat tighten either, but it happens too quickly for her to stop. It feels like a trap she doesn't want to escape.
"What of Eurydice?" Anthy asks again, her tone smooth and deep.
"She was let down," Utena answers. "He didn't save her. She followed him all that way... I'm sure she had many hopes. But he couldn't be her prince. Wouldn't she hate him for it?" Do you hate me, that I couldn't be yours?
It sounds like dread confirmation when Anthy leans into her shoulder with a small chuckle, and for a split-second Utena expects a blade in her side to drive the point of failure home one last time.
Then there is wetness on her back, and Utena arches in surprise. "Himemiya?" It's a whisper with so little breath behind it. In an instant she whirls around, forgetting the thought of a test, the fear of a blade, only believing that her friend is hurt. She catches herself just as she goes to hug the other girl-- but then she does anyway. If looking back was the test, she's failed. She's failed so many times over. How could she look away from Anthy?
At least for this instant, her friend feels real and substantial. Here with her, and not just the empty cloth of a dress. There is the warmth of skin to feel, the weight of long, thick hair.
"Utena, you would comfort me even now?" Anthy murmurs. "I have been Eurydice. I have waited, waited, waited in my coffin, never truly believing I would be rescued. And I drew you deeper and deeper into an underworld of magic and deceit. But still, even when you knew all the dangers, you came in deeper still to save me. All I had to do to be free was follow you. But I didn't give you the smallest sign that I was behind you, following. So for me, you looked back into a nightmare once more." She lifts her head up, and her face is one that stuns Utena, as it's so unlike the mild girl who tended the roses: there are tears in her eyes, yet a small smile that is at the same time twisted up, thorned against any retorts that might come her way. She's not wearing her glasses. "I think, Miss Utena, if Eurydice hated anyone, it was herself. For putting someone she loved through a nightmare, and for not making the slightest move to reassure them that the efforts they'd gone through weren't in vain."
"But-- you said it was a tragedy," Utena says. She feels like she's teetering, not knowing how to take Anthy's words. Well, that's one thing that hasn't changed, then. "I-- Orpheus..."
"Utena," Anthy interrupts, and reaches up a hand to her cheek. Belatedly, Utena realizes she's been crying herself. "Did you think you were Orpheus? You bargained with no one."
***
I didn't know how to handle the Utena-sama (or san) / Utena / Miss Utena myself. Miss Utena felt too stiff to do every single time, Utena too casual, honorifics were kind of ech for both mixing languages and because I'm not even 100% sure what would be most appropriate for Anthy, I think I blanked if she used something different at the end.
Then there's the setup in general. To be honest most of this comes from the talk of coffins and me having had Orpheus' legend more on the brain for months and months now thanks to an interesting game called "Don't look back" (which I haven't actually beaten--attempted, but not beaten--but watched a youtube playthrough of). And then the fact that Orpheus legend really IS always looked at from the view of Orpheus, so it seemed kind of fun to flip it around: how did Eurydice feel about what happened?
Plus it seemed weird that it took months and months for Anthy to actually leave. Utena definitely sparked something in her, but maybe it took a while to actually manifest as resolve. ...Which, I can see as if Utena does remember the school and all, that being well enough time for her to become truly convinced she had completely failed Anthy given the tone of her comments after Anthy slipped away and the way she pretty much had a heroic bsod after losing the duel to Touga. So. ...That's how the fic got writ.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-25 02:04 pm (UTC)A few decades down the line, I can't see Utena really wanting to go back as she'd expect everyone she knows to be gone except Akio (and I don't see her really wanting to see him). (Though now this has me wondering about a fanfic where like some years down the line Utena ends up getting a letter from Wakaba and it seems normal enough except... why was the "from" address within Ohtori Academy, oh no...) I can see Anthy being torn--knowing full well that unless something happened with the magic her brother is still there and holding some sway and fearing that, but at the same time she does still love him in a way so... but I don't think she'd be as surprised to see him unaging.
Nah, you were fine mentioning the movie! I'd actually been planning to watch it as I responded to your comment because I thought I should figure out what's finally going on there, and then I did a bit later on in the day. My viewing was a bit hampered by the video and audio refusing to sync up--didn't cause confusion anywhere, but it was annoying. Visually, it was pretty interesting, and I liked the scenes, but it felt like it relied too much on the series to give it meaning considering it's an AU. Like, I honestly can't imagine it having been received well at all if it had come out on its own, without the background of Utena already established. Watching it though I do get the themes and comments of several fanfics more--seems like it's popular to tie some of the movie's sentiments back into the series ("killing the prince", which I think you actually mentioned to me and it then made no sense to me because Utena was trying to be the prince all the way up to the end in the series--then watch the movie and aha!; the prince being "lord of the flies", which I encountered in a fanfic and it made sense to me from the series' context but at the same time I thought it was a peculiar particular phrase to use; the Final Fantasy AU I mentioned to you once with Aerith as Rose Bride seemed to be using a mash-up of series and movie, as Akio/Sephiroth was curiously absent up till the very end--until Cloud finds out about Aerith having been abused by him and that she's partly trapped by a fear of him even though he's been dead in the present time all along, at which point Sephiroth's spirit is manifested by her magic and attacks Cloud).
I do think though that even in the series it's not really about Utena rescuing Anthy-- like she really does intend to, and that's why Anthy gets the courage to leave, knowing she has a true friend she can actually go to, but both Anthy's betrayal and Anthy leaving on her own in the end demonstrate that Anthy had to choose to be free and break away from hopelessness. So while the movie gave her a more action-y thing to do, it didn't really feel that much different in the choices leading up to it: Utena was fighting for her, Utena encouraged her to leave, she was still scared to leave and it led to them being ...kind of...separated... car Utena, what and then she steps up. Like, I kind of like the movie because it shows her also helping Utena, even if the reason why she's helping Utena seems utterly nonsensical to me car Utena, but I think I like the series' role for her more because it shows that defiance isn't always about wielding a sword to fight or doing something cool, a lot of times it's as plain as saying "You're wrong, and I'm not putting up with this anymore" and walking out.
But yeah, the movie does seem ultimately better treated as a AU, even if some of the themes and comments are easy to work back into the series.
though does raise the interesting idea of what, if any, powers does Anthy have now? Is she still technically a witch, or...?
I am so glad to not be the only one confused by that, haha. I was also in the end wondering BUT WHAT ABOUT THE SWORDS? Like I first read fanfics that ignored them as if Anthy had broken free of those too and that felt right to me-- and then I started encountering fanfics where she was still always aware of them, having to avoid them and/or prevent them from targeting Utena...
I kind of like that idea of Utena lying with her back to the wall; of course I also ended up picturing her subconsciously wrapping herself in a kind of blanket cocoon (Anthy eventually tells her she's cold to at least ease the blanket silliness). And then yeah, at some point Utena just naturally does what seems more comfortable to her but hasn't happened up until then because of that lingering fear to be cuddled by Anthy and they both realize, they're okay.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-25 07:10 pm (UTC)Ooh! That is an interesting idea for Utena returning to Ohtori: discovering that despite what she assumed everyone she knew is trapped inside the school still. I was thinking on a tangent if this is how it always was, go into the school, get trapped in a ambiguous time that never advances while the world around them changes, but that's not entirely reconcilable with the idea that people are graduating and leaving (we hope), so Wakaba (and by extension the rest of the cast) are still inside due to Akio's reaction to losing Anthy - very much staying in his coffin, but taking the rest of the school in there with him. But yeah, otherwise going back there isn't going to have much of an appeal to Utena, but Anthy could be torn quite easily; he's likely there and still just as powerful, but he remains her seemingly only living relative - despite what he has done...
Ack! that's annoying for the sync issues, but at least you were able to watch it all. Haha - visually it is really nice and the animation is great - but yeah relied a bit too much on the series. I really remain torn on that as to whether it is better to know the series; I just kept having these clashes of characters in my head with the series depictions versus the film changes. I still need to read more Utena fanfics though; hadn't realised the film was that influential on them. Ah; I'm not sure you did actually mention the FF AU with Aeris as the Rose Bride in the end! I rambled about equating Anthy to Aeris for a fic like that once ages ago as a very vague idea I didn't have fully thought out - I didn't know someone had actually gone through with that one (intrigued now).
I'd agree in both its not really about Utena rescuing Anthy (and if she did rescue Anthy wouldn't that as good as Utena's intentions are just put Utena on the same page as the other duelists no matter how high-minded; it feels like Utena has to show her the way or give her a push, but Anthy has to make the choice to leave on her own). And true Anthy gets a more actiony thing... which... sort of more directly involved Utena. Yeah, coherency just breaks down with the car things (and suddenly you're not sure what film you are watching any more. Oh look, Shiori's a car. And Kozue. And *Wakaba* (though at least she changed back. Somehow. And, um, the other duelists are randomly good?)). Totally agree the series Anthy's defiance is much more meaningful with her simply refusing to co-operate and simply walking away - while it is nice to see her actively helping Utena leave... Did we have to have the car bit?
(a friend of mine insists on referring to the film as 'the film where the lesbians turn into cars' which is kind of annoyingly accurate)
Also glad I wasn't the only one wondering about the swords... I do like the idea that they're simply gone as well and it was all part and parcel of being the Rose Bride so that now she's walked away she's free of those too... Hmm. The other fanfics... sounds interesting but overly complicated - and for the idea that the school is surreal and stepping out into the real world is more mundane that seems an odd choice to have. Then again I suppose the fics could have the real world be just as weird, or have Anthy exist with all her powers and curse intact (which feels a little odd for the end of the series). I need to retain more Utena fanfic!
Glad the idea of Utena keeping her back to the wall works; and I like the idea of her wrapping herself into a blanket cocoon as well. And Utena may be twitchy at first around Anthy, but they will get there eventually.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-26 12:09 am (UTC)I was pretty sure I had mentioned the fic, because of the Utena parallels we were discussing (I think you also had like Zack as Touga and Cloud as Saionji? Or maybe reversed) but anyway, here's the link! What Lies Beneath. Now that I've looked again there actually is an AN stating that it's based on the Adolescence of Utena movie which explains several things. It's not exactly the best written but it's interesting for how they decided to do the crossover?
...I think I missed that Wakaba was a car. Thankfully. But yeah, randomly good duelists. XD
(a friend of mine insists on referring to the film as 'the film where the lesbians turn into cars' which is kind of annoyingly accurate)
I have to admit I looked at the visual of Utena and Anthy on the remains of the vehicle and went "SO THIS IS WHERE S-E GOT THE IDEA FOR LESBIAN MOTORCYCLE FROM". (And when I wasn't thinking that, I was wincing at the thought of how easily their freely flowing hair would realistically get snagged or caught in something and hurt like hell)
Hahaha, I just had that binge of post-series reunion fics to go off of--which of course, being about Utena and Anthy, usually touch somewhat on how the author thinks Anthy is post-series.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-26 08:31 am (UTC)Embarrassingly you might have mentioned that fic and I completely forgot about it! Oop. I found it in amongst the saved ones I have when I tried to archive it. Thank you for the link anyway; I'm not sure I'd have even found it again otherwise. I'll have a look at that when I've finished Beloved.
Wakaba the car... I missed this the first few times, but... she's the green jeep the other student council members are on when they rescue Anthy and Utena; there's a brief shot of the front of it and it has Wakaba stamped across the front of it.
HAHA! I never made that connection from Utena and Anthy at the end and the Shiva sisters! And yeah I was really distracted by just how close their hair was getting to the wheels and how horribly painful that would wind up.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-27 01:18 am (UTC)No worries! But yeah "What Lies Beneath" is fairly brief in each chapter, so I don't think it'd take very long to read.
Hahah, I think I just made the Shiva sisters connection because of so many jokes I heard about Snow's ride.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-27 11:40 am (UTC)I somehow avoided all the jokes about Snow's ride until recently (mostly as I think everyone I knew had pretty much given up on the FF series and I wanted to get the game finished before I got anywhere near the fandom)
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-27 04:36 pm (UTC)I think that was the tack they were taking, yeah. It's amusing to think of the staff having a brief hubbub over "where's the head teacher! where's the deputy! where's-- (you know, I don't know if they have PTA either. My impression of the school system is saying could go either way?)" and then a few months later they have that mess sorted out and then they're actually kind of happy to not have the acting chairman anymore. Too young, too flashy. And Akio himself is replaced...
mostly as I think everyone I knew had pretty much given up on the FF series
Every time I see something like this I'm like sad for about five seconds and then I think about my own reactions to the latest entries and it's like "well yeah I can see why" oh S-E.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-27 06:16 pm (UTC)Ah! Yeah, it is always disheartening to reflect when all the people I know who used to look forward to the new FF entrants don't anymore, or just don't go near them (and in some cases RPGs in general)... And then yeah, all too easy to remember reactions to the latest entries - oh SE. (hopefully be able to tackle the end of XIII-2 soon. I've spent a long while doing missions and leveling Serah and Noel to hopefully now get past Caius. And the mention of that Chocobo chick was really helpful! He gave me the hint and a good chunk of Crystarium points which'll help).
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-28 04:05 am (UTC)...And there was a plot point involving PTA! So it's likely not showing up in other anime as much since most school anime is about the teenagers, but it does exist in Japan, or something very similar anyway.
Ah! The wiki mentioned the crystarium points for finding the chick and its fragment; funny enough, I'd completely forgotten what the points were for. Glad it helped though! Yes, hopefully you'll be able to beat the end soon. And hopefully the Final Fantasy series will pick up again.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-28 05:57 pm (UTC)Haha - yeah I can't see the KareKano thing happening over here either - to try and get a couple to break up would require them doing something pretty major before their parents were called in like that...
And yep; XIII-2 now finished, just cuing up DLC episodes on Youtube (and things like the paradox endings)...
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-29 01:25 am (UTC)Hehe, have fun watching the DLC! I should probably watch the Snow DLC sometime myself; I've just watched parts of Sazh's, and Lightning's.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-06-29 01:06 pm (UTC)Have now caught up on the DLC! Chocolina seems somewhat of a paradox regardless since she and the Chocobo chick are there at the same point. To fit with the canon, it does still work as the chocobo chick does go with Sazh and Dahj as the exit Serendipity (...though that still begs the question of when and how she got separated from them to become Chocolina). Lighting's was interesting - though slightly odd. Given the somewhat bleak ending (and apparently SE were annoyed that people anticipated another game due to the 'To be Continued' caption (but seriously? They wanted to pretend that was the conclusion? It's clearly a setup to fix the world) - as that was meant to refer to the DLC. Okay, but the DLC ends at almost the same point the game does with Lightning turning into crystal. Unless they meant the hint she's at 500AF on her own... and that doesn't really help) I was anticipating more of a forward hint to Lightning Returns then we got.
I won't mention Snow's for now (his is more for the end of his DLC then the intro. Kinda cool to hear what Ultros sounds like). The paradox endings; I never knew those were even available - kind of fun though. That said when Snow bursts in to stop Alyssa was a bit niggly as apparently no one is going to comment on the very visible l'Cie brand (I think they found a fal'Cie in the Yaschas Massif so maybe this is the one Snow struck a deal with - though why he needed...), or that he has the Shiva sisters back again, or how he's time-traveling as well (I can see Sazh and Dahj winding up at 500AF due to Serendipity. Hope, Serah and Noel are all explained, but Snow? Is this a new l'Cie power? And I am wondering if NORA are still around as well - little improbable by that point) - but then paradox ending I suppose. Except the l'Cie brand was visible the last time Serah met him...
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-01 05:46 am (UTC)...if the chick got separated from Sazh and Dajh after that, wouldn't that mean Chocolina should know that Serah was going to die and they would fail in preventing Caius from killing the goddess? Or... whatever he was actually trying to do to save Yeul. I'm not pretending I remember much. XD
And oh SE's "to be continued" is so many shades of stupid.
lmfao I don't really mind spoilers in regards to anything XIII XD but anyway I think his fragments were supposed to imply Snow's BEEN hopping around in time quite a bit? Though whether it's his l'Cie power or just... something he was doing through the historia crux...? I really have no memory. XD
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-01 09:04 pm (UTC)...That's a good point! Chocolina should have know Serah was always going to die. Well, actually the time-travel in XIII-2 feels confused (mixture between closed loop and quantum/parallel worlds) so there is a way she might not. But yeah, I would have thought she'd know/be more worried about the imminent end of the world/Caius's absurdly confusing plot to save Yeul by destroying time (I'm glad this wasn't just me who was extremely unclear on what and how Caius's plan worked. It seemed like a stupider version of Ultimecia's; she wanted to destroy time but for her own ends. She wasn't trying to stop someone dying by... wiping out existence. Um... Caius? Are you *sure* you thought this scheme through?)
(yeah I only just played the game and the motivations are murky and weird. And I really can't get behind Noel/Yeul. Partly I think its the incredible lack of interaction between the two, but its also the really vague one-sidedness)
Ah! Well, one paradox end suggests Snow has been bouncing around casuality doing... something (with l'Cie powers and the Shiva sisters. No one even comments on how and why he has those. But Noel is left guarding Hope who's due to shortly be assassinated. He then jets off with Serah to do mighty deeds (okay she went with him. Still having difficulty with that pairing)). The Snow DLC on the other hand has him remain in the Coliseum, seemingly hanging out with Ultros, Gilgamesh, Jihl et al (I am... kind of impressed they resisted sticking Sephiroth in as well) - though when he says goodbye to Serah she tells him if he takes too long she'll come looking for him. Which is better for the two of them, but annoying that that is locked to the DLC.
(Also; I'm curious as to what the historia crux actually is? It seems decidedly artificial and constructed, but by who and how...)
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-05 04:14 am (UTC)Aaaaaand...haha, yeah. Caius' plan. In part his objective seems to simply be "Yeul doesn't have to die anymore". Which doesn't mean she has to live, either... because Valhalla is a place of pure possibility. So I get the sense that Caius was just kind of crazy in the brain anyway and what he's chasing after would kind of like be if SQUALL (or some other normal human) wanted Time Compression to occur so they themselves never had to experience loss or pain in any way again.
And yeah, Yeul honestly is so childlike that it never seems like a romantic affection from her to Noel (honestly with how much she hung around Caius anyway while he's doing his crazy thing, it often seemed like she was onboard with that ship instead, if on any...)
Well, Serah does love Snow still. But yeah, his paradox ending is kind of random in him just barging in to be the hero.
...I have no idea if the historia crux is even remotely explained in-game, come to think of it.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-05 09:05 pm (UTC)Haha - yeah I think Caius just was crazy, as making Yeul no longer suffer by making sure she wouldn't live at all... is just weird. And yeah Yeul's youthfulness/child-likeness reeeeeally makes the Noel/Yeul ship difficult to buy into (the wikia claims she ranges from ages 14 to 17 depending on time-zone, but I really never noticed an apparent change in her character design), and that total absence of reciprocated affection from her to Noel (not that the game was swimming in affection the other way). And yes, she spends so long with the game's villain (and apparently can't ever say to Caius "This is craziness, please don't destroy time, I really don't want that"), that ship would seem to have more going for it (I think really Caius cares for Yeul more then Noel).
Heh - as far as I can see the Historia Crux isn't explained in-game at all. The wikia doesn't help much - or at least what it is/why it looks like that - apparently the ability to traverse it comes from Etro, but beyond that...
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-06 04:18 am (UTC)that total absence of reciprocated affection from her to Noel (not that the game was swimming in affection the other way)
I think the game was pretty clear about Noel's affection for her, it's just... he seems to be making it out as romantic, and at the same time he's so focused solely on protecting her that it's like, "okay, if they had grown up NOT being the last two people in the world, in a normal situation, would he view her as being like a younger sister"? Like they're love interests purely because they have hormones and they're the only ones they know and Yeul, yeah, doesn't really seem interested, probably because she knows she's going to die anyway so oops. ...I guess it kind of goes back to what we were talking about Snow/Serah, the feeling that they didn't really choose each other.
...Yeah I'm not really sure why Yeul doesn't tell Caius to just stop. And considering what Caius is doing I think he definitely has to care more for Yeul than Noel--in the end, his plan involves causing Noel pain in at least one way, by forcing him to kill.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-06 11:09 am (UTC)That's true, it was Noel insisting on the romantic angle, but by action it was more the need to protect Yeul in the far future. Definitely agree that in a normal situation they'd be more sibling like; and that they're love interests due to lack of other people/hormones. You're right; like Snow and Serah we never see them choose to be with each other, they just stated are.
And Yeul not asking Caius to stop was just weird - and yes! it really does seem like Caius has to care for Yeul more given what he is trying to do, and that his plan requires Noel being caused pain (though... then I get confused again. As seemingly before Caius went on his destroy time plan (it could admittedly have been there before), he wanted Noel to kill him so he could become the guardian - and that required piercing his heart. Which is what ends up happening but then destroyed the world. Would it have worked differently if it were voluntarily/Noel prepared to become the new guardian? Or was it always a trick and Caius wanted Noel to kill him to destroy time then?)
Switching topics entirely; I looked at the video for the Divine Task. And... wow. I know you said you weren't looking forward to LR anymore, but I hadn't anticipated anything like that. I'm really not looking forward to it either - I feel the need to play it for completeness, but I'm not going to rush to get hold of it. It was just... what is going on anymore? Lightning is saving the souls of the dead? Noel wants her dead? (we still have QTEs? Urgh) She was given new powers by god (not Etro apparently. Well admittedly she is now dead. I think)?
But yeah, it's just... odd. I was thinking about it, and it feels the major problem with the XIII series now is how little the games have to do with each other; the first game was about breaking humanity out of Cocoon and letting them out into the larger world, removing the reliance on fal'Cie, Lightning learning that her sister has to live her own life (etc etc). But then the second game is about time-travel, Lightning made into a guardian of Etro, Yeul, Caius, the fall of Cocoon. Aside from taking place after the first game, it doesn't feel like a sequel. It uses the same characters and settings but seemingly so few themes and ideas. And the third game is different again; now Lightning is guiding lost souls? Time has stopped on Gran Pulse? Snow and Noel are seemingly now antagonists...
XIII-2 feels like it should have been about adapting to life on Gran Pulse and the rise of the new society freed from fal'Cie, the difficulties they face, the people who can't cope with the new world, things like that. Not sure its a good basis for a game, but that would have felt more like a sequel. Its hard not to compare back to the Compilation, which has numerous issues, but the common thread is Shinra and what they did and its after-effects which touches on all the elements of the story (even if DoC is somewhat forced to connect). And maybe XIII would work better if the fal'Cie were more of a component of XIII-2...
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-06 03:22 pm (UTC)I want... to say that Caius had wanted Noel to take the Heart of Etro and become the immortal guardian, thus why there could only be one of them (because he'd die afterward?) ...but then my memory is really vague and, looking at the wiki entry for Caius, no, he really was just being a massive ball of crazy and jerkishness to Noel: he wanted Noel to destroy the heart and bring time to a stop that way. His plan always involved using Noel in a way that Noel didn't want to be used, to then be screwed over because he wouldn't even get to protect his Yeul, neither of them would be alive. To be fair to Caius he was long crazy by the time of Noel and Noel's Yeul. ... but then on the note of relationships, the fact that Noel looks up to this guy so much makes it really seem like "Oh, yeah, he really didn't get to know enough people growing up to have any halfway-decent 'this person is as crazy as a bag of cats' sense."
I am just going to side-eye both of Noel's starting relationships forever. HE WAS REALLY DEPRIVED OF PEOPLE, OK.
Ahaha the Divine Task trailer. To be honest I was like "no" from the instant Lightning went "IT WAS GOD" like a fanatic. Which is really somewhat weird because I've known for a while now that she was tied to Bhunivelze (sp, and yes, not Etro)... but it's like, even with XIII-2 I knew a Lightning roleplayer who had an issue with preview stuff showing Lightning serving Etro and hoping there was some justification--which I agreed with on there being a need for--because of how strongly she opposed the idea of being used by the fal'Cie from the very beginning in XIII. XIII-2 didn't really come through on justification in attitude, but then again Lightning was also pretty much stuck anyway because lol no leaving Valhalla. But being Etro's champion didn't get her ANYWHERE, it just took her away from Serah. (and like, what life she would have had outside of Serah, but lol Lightning is really like Snow in the "Serah serah SERAH" business anyway. Just less vocal.) The whole of XIII-2 is like Lightning you were not happy at all with any of this and where did it even get anyone. \o_O/ So then we get Lightning Returns and "IT WAS GOD" and oh sure let's hup to divine tasks again and it's just she was not cool with this in the original game, gods/goddesses/higher beings have pretty much consistently screwed her over, her characterization in Dissidia was not the best but even then included her being pretty aloof about gods and wary about being used by them so it's like. Light. Don't sound so reverent about "god" please. eeugh.
I can see her going along with it given the possible stakes (Serah being erased like she never even existed? UNACCEPTABLE) but for the love of all things I would hope she's being ultra skeptical about who she's actually serving and for what purpose and that's just not coming through in the trailer. Similar story with Hope as another one of the l'Cie.
Then again since he named that structure Bhunivelze I won't be surprised if he's supposed to have had some sort of connection even in XIII-2Noel wants her dead
NOEL, WHO IS SO SET AGAINST KILLING ANYONE FOR ANY REASON THAT CAIUS HAS TO GRAB HIS BLADE AND FORCE HIM.
/sooooooooooooooooob
Actually I can kind of see this turn for Noel in the aftermath of, having "killed" Caius and thus the goddess, he's so desperate to fix that that he is willing to cross his moral horizon again. Like, I'm pretty sure he would tear himself apart with guilt on it too if he succeeded, because he likes Lightning and he doesn't want to kill anyone, but it seems he's been convinced that this is the only way to remotely fix what he "wrecked" in the first place (THIS IS REALLY ALL CAIUS' FAULT, GDIT. NOEL STOP BEING STUPID).
But really both Noel and Snow are coming off as mildly "brainwashed and crazy" here and it's like. ... this is really hard because I can like 'brainwashed and crazy' or 'manipulated into doing something dumb', both stemming from an existing emotional issue (which haha Noel and Snow certain have), as an incident in canon. When it so far seems to be the driving force for a lot of the conflict...that's a bit different? I don't know how to put it that well in words.
Aaaand yeah each game is veering so wildly from theme to theme it's like sigh. I can kind of see them wanting to avoid that build for XIII-2 that you described because I realized a good portion of that sounds like X-2, which has been pretty panned--although with X-2 it was never those issues that were the problem, more like... how corny the writing was.... they would probably have inevitably felt a great need to throw in some big new threat, haha. But at least it wouldn't have retconned XIII's ending. And yeah, it's puzzling fal'Cie don't play more of a part in XIII-2 after the first game.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-06 06:00 pm (UTC)That first bit about Caius wanting Noel to take the Heart of Etro; that was at least allegedly what he wanted before he went to Valhalla, but then...yeah it reads like he always wanted Noel to destroy the heart, and was just being jerkish the entire time. So Caius was always crazy as long as Noel has known him and wanted to stop time. ...other then he is crazy and jerkish, was there really anything to stop him stabbing himself (like he does at the end of XIII-2) well before that? And yeah, Noel just can't have realised Caius was crazy as a bag of cats due to lack of other people to compare the maniac to.
...it is then remarkable that Noel can cope with meeting Lightning, Serah, the members of NORA etc etc given his only companions were apparently a madman who wanted him to kill him and a girl who knew she was going to die and soon.
The trailer! Oh, yeah, as soon as Lightning said "It was god," I couldn't take the rest of it with any degree of seriousness. My first thought was that being so vague as "god" when previously everything centred around Etro was weird enough to start with, but that she's tied to Bhunivelze as well... and Yes! given how infuriated she was with servitude to the fal'Cie in XIII that she would willingly serve Etro makes no sense. XIII-2 never attempted to justify the mind-set, but as you say, its not like she has a lot of choice - and its either do Etro's bidding or watch time be destroyed (though... seemingly all you really needed to do was put Caius in a box (/put that box in another box, mail it to yourself and when it arrives; HAHA! Smash it with a hammer! It's brilliant, brilliant! ...or to save on postage (got carried away there)) and bury him somewhere as he's immortal and as long as he's alive then he can't destroy time. And yeah, being Etro's champion wasn't exactly good for her/separated her from Serah and then began the process that would in the end kill Serah.
Oh; yeah Lightning really is almost as bad as Snow with her Serah obsession (I read the XIII episode i novella which was interesting if not really advancing anything/feeding into the retcon, and started on episode Zero (before getting fed up of the pdf version I had which was putting footers through the text so I've been re-copying the text from the blog that translated it to put into a nicer form) - and there's so much of Lightning deciding she knows what's best for Serah and Snow isn't it. And I think one big issue is that from what I've read, those events needed to be in the game as they help setup the characters so much better. Well, Vanille and Fang's sections maybe not, but Lightning, Snow, Serah, Dahj and Sazh - yes), but doesn't shout about it as often. With that fact that Lightning's attitude has changed so much, I would have thought there would be more complaints about XIII-2's changes to her given her desire to operate on her own, not with their powers and not at their behest. And yeah, the reverance... not good.
True, if the situation allows her to rescue Serah, I can see why she would agree, but YES she needed to be skeptical, needs to have a plan in case it turns out this is trickery/it's not god but a cocoon fal'Cie that somehow survived that is exacting a revenge. Wait, Hope's a l'Cie again as well? This feels like the writing staff weren't listening to each other again or did everyone forget the magic without l'Cie branding in XIII-2?
...ouch. Yeah how did I miss that? Noel wanting Lightning dead is a 180 from last time. But yeah, maybe if he is desperate to fix his role in the end of time he can break his morals. But yeah; it's all Caius's fault Noel! He tricked you, and when you resisted took the act out of your hands! I think I know what you mean about brainwashed and crazy being an interesting idea - from emotional issues. Its like if they were adamant that doing something contrary to their morals could get back the one thing they wanted (they both presumably want Serah back/Noel wants Yeul/the end of time altered), or they've somehow spent so long stewing over the situation/focussed blame on someone who reappears again (this was partly how Evangelion 3.33 ran), or they missed certain events/only found a distorted version/have outright been brainwashed... then yeah that works. But if I read right; that works as a plot-point/a misunderstanding until the protagonist can say, "wait, hold up. That's not what happened/what I said/what I meant" and try to get through to them (and this is where for me Evangelion 3.33 became unbearable as not only did no one explain Shinji's "crime" he wasn't concious of what he did do in the first place, so he was being shouted at for something he didn't know he did by people who refused to tell him why they were furious. That was not entertaining in the slightest), but when it looks to be the basis of regular attacks by Noel on Lightning/the reasoning for Snow's new found dislike of Lightning and this is going to get prolonged through the game... That's not good. It also suggests that Lightning might take the "I don't have to explain myself to you/I don't understand what you're on about but for plot convenience will not voice the pertinent questions at the pertinent time to the pertinent people" stance which would be aggravating.
Fair point on avoiding the rebuilding of the world like X-2 did - but yes, that setup wasn't the reason why people objected to X-2! And yeah, they'd need a Vegna-gun/other new big threat, but would at least have left XIII's ending in place and not clumsily ret-conned it as they did. And the lack of theme consistency is frustrating. And the lack of mentions of fal'Cie is odd. Actually, from what I've read of episode Zero, I do have to wonder if there aren't more fal'Cie on Pulse somewhere (especially as there is this frustrating feel (partly due to how XIII-2 was designed) that Gran Pulse is... small. Or at least we only see a very finite portion of a gigantic planet.
(oh, don't know if you heard, but the X|X-2 remaster is apparently getting an additional epilogue. ...really not sure how I feel about that/think that's necessary. I am wondering if the re-release will include the additional X epilogue where Rikku brings Yuna the sphere....)
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-11 04:29 am (UTC)Noooot that I know of. Maybe if the heart came with some kind of "you cannot kill yourself" curse that required using another's hand (which Caius...sort of does at the end of XIII-2; it's definitely him killing himself, he just managed to screw up Noel by involving him in the process), but having that sort of curse would also seem a bit too controlling of Etro, who largely as a goddess seems to screw people up by being impulsive, not by any intentional harm.
And yeah that Noel copes with other people at all is amazing. XD He DID have other company besides Yeul and Caius at first, it's just...yeah, they all died off, and had been dead for a while. I'm surprised he's not clingy or anything--though on second thought maybe he is, considering how quickly he takes Lightning's request to find Serah and then cares for Serah. Hmm.
haha I am amused that the "It was god" was both the NOPE point for us XD I think part of it too might be that Final Fantasy is usually so humanistic/positive of humanity being able to triumph on its own in the end; sure, in the earlier Final Fantasies there is a sort of divine approval of the heroes' quest implied in the crystals, but from at least V up (I seriously cannot remember enough of IV to say) a lot of the takeaway seems to be "humanity can overcome this through their will". Final Fantasy V, stuff keeps getting worse, up to everything being sucked into a void (EXCEPT FOR MY PARTY--I still need to figure out what's going on there, hopefully tomorrow), the whole game is pretty much a downward slide with brief hope spots that are then like "gotcha!", but the party keeps on trucking, and this is what's credited with saving the day in the end. Final Fantasy VI, humanity recovers after the apocalypse to retain hope and fight back for what they love. Final Fantasy VII, there's a bit of "higher power approval" implied in the Cetra and the Planet and Holy but so much of the plot movement rests in AVALANCHE going "hey. we're doing this because we think it's right", up to the very end this is a point that they're doing this for their reasons, and it's also a point that humanity has quite a bit of effect on the Planet. Final Fantasy VIII knocks heavily on destiny, but at the same time they have a whole friendship speech by Laguna and if it weren't for small mentions of Hyne you wouldn't know there's any divinities about. Final Fantasy IX Zidane's actual character quote is "You don't need a reason to help people", you don't need any special reason to be a hero other than knowing right and wrong. FFX we're overthrowing the religion. FFXII we're overthrowing the things that are closest to gods the party knows and even the villain's plot involved defying those guys. FF XIII hahaha nope we don't want the Maker, nope we're side-eyeing the nearest higher powers we have and realizing they cause a lot of our misery, human will power to make our own miracles is the answer this is even a character thing, Vanille has to realize she can't just pray and hope some higher power will intervene she's gotta make it happen herself. Odd deus ex machinas in the end aside, that's the theme they were at least trying to deliver.
....so XIII: LR "I WAS GIVEN A MISSION BY GOD" Light no. noooooooooooo.
They...might reverse this in the end? But so far as it stands it seems like not just bad characterization and not matching up to Lightning's experiences with higher powers but kind of a weakening on that general theme (now we need a higher power to be saved). At least to me.
/put that box in another box, mail it to yourself and when it arrives; HAHA! Smash it with a hammer! It's brilliant, brilliant!
Emperor's New Groove? lol
And I think one big issue is that from what I've read, those events needed to be in the game as they help setup the characters so much better.
YES. EXACTLY. This is why I'm frustrated with how the game shows Sazh and then "oh. btw his most awesome moment is actually in the novella." e____e
Wait, Hope's a l'Cie again as well?
Ah, nope. Bad communication by me. Basically I meant that I thought any of the l'Cie from the first game (and I meant Hope as one of them) would be kind of leery at accepting a divine power at their word given Dysley. Granted Snow still got himself branded again so YMMV, but I always figured that was more desperation to have the ability to do stuff than "hey, these guys are cool! :D"
Though Snow's condition in XIII-2 pretty much shows they could still make Hope a l'Cie in LR without contradicting themselves, just say he didn't get the magic either! ...It'd be kind of lame though.
And yeah, I think you got it right; a fight between Noel and Lightning or Snow and Lightning as one brief conflict could be entertaining, but as something prolonged could get wearing especially if it'd be easily cleared up by communication. The upshot is, remembering how we both thought Atlas would be more important than it actually was in XIII-2, there's a good chance the conflict with both Noel and Snow is being played up because of how dramatic fighting a former ally is, and while these will both still be dramatic sequences when they happen in game, they won't be as prolonged/plot-crucial as they seem now. There's that possibility. ...The downside of this is that I'm pretty sure I did see it stated somewhere that it's multiple struggles against at least one of them and one of the screencaps with Hope suggests that Lightning is going to have to deal with not being a favorite of Snow's for at least some time (he's noting that security around where Snow is is running high so she's not likely to meet him--which suggests the security was set against her). gdit, Snow, still with the steelguard.
There are at least some fal'Cie on Pulse given Snow's fal'Cie (which apparently is Cactuar?? haha) but... yeah. Since they are alive there, they could have been integrated more--and the world of XIII-2 IS made to feel so very, very small.
I heard a bit about a new scene for X|X-2, but didn't realize it was an epilogue. To be honest, I don't really have a clue what sort of thing they'd add for more...conclusiveness, idek.
(no subject)
Date: 2013-07-11 06:45 pm (UTC)Haha - fair point, there were the other people who dissolve to paradox if you uncover them in 700AF (that sequence actually always plays weirdly for me. Serah can't see Mog, or know he's there, but trusts that he is. I can accept she takes it on faith he's there. But you trigger the paradox uncovering in the same way, so logically shouldn't Serah be reckoning that if this works on command at her instigation that Mog is definitely present but somehow out of step with her?). I suppose it might explain why Noel is so eager to comply with Lightning's request/sticks with Serah so closely/causes all that ambiguity, but then it never extends past the Farron sisters. I suppose it might be bewildering to have so many new people around, but maybe he should have been clingier with everyone (much to NORA's bemusement at their suspicion of him, but they can't get rid of him. And he talkes about EVERYTHING and ANYTHING).
That is an excellent point about the general FF theme of being positive humanity can triumph on its own. The specific example that came easiest was oddly from XII where Ashe defies the god-like beings, but you've nicely highlighted how its true on all the others (VII is close with Holy/The Planet being the ultimate saving force, but that couldn't happen until Avalanche went to the Planet core and defeated Sephiroth). I do like the summaries! (on that note, were you able to get back into the N-zone? And Geomancers are awesome! (I'd been dubious about the class too, but they are amazingly effective)). FFIV I think did keep the same theme for the most part; in the end it did come down to just the party in a one on one fight with the villain with no last second special powers or outside help (I'm not totally sure though, as Cecil's conversion to a paladin is very much a more powerful force re-doing his class, though that's pretty early on all things considered. Everyone else is under their own steam though). And yeah, LR is the first to apparently throw that out (and indeed. Etro interfered - though like in VII the party needed to do a great deal of work first, and seemingly things the supernatural forces couldn't).
It is possible they might reverse it, but there seemed to be some weird implications from the trailer; like what looked like a church which gave me the feel of a hub of operations for some reason. I would concur it seems a fundamental change to how the other games operate, and Lightning's experiences with those higher powers have been pretty much universally negative (she'd have some thanks for Etro for breaking the focus completion issue/removing their brands rather then scarring them - but I think it'd end there)
Heh - yep, shameless Emperor's new Groove referencing (I was going to say I just love any part of the film with Yzma and Kronk in it, then I remember the rest of the film has other inspired madness, so basically the whole thing)
I finished the novella! And wow; the start of the game makes more sense - its not even just the characters are better introduced, its certain motives make sense. It's been a while since I played XIII, but I honestly can't remember if Sazh ever mentioned the reason he got on the Pulse train was to fulfill Dahj's focus for him, or that Vanille just wanted to go home (or that most of the cast almost met Sazh/each other under different conditions). Or even other things like Rosch, Jihl, Rydgea and Cid having actually characterful moments. Especially those first two where it felt like there was more to them then the recurring villains they got painted as (/frustratingly cut down as Jihl was. It really felt she would have a larger role), and they were more then the amoral kill everything military the game presented them as (admittedly that might be a reach for Rosch given he doesn't get a lot to do, but he was playing with Dahj - or at least implied to, which does indicate there was more to him). And anything more on Cid was really welcome (its a slight pity there wasn't a mid-game chapter for Fang, Cid and Snow on the Lindblum to boost that a bit), as again I'd pretty much forgotten if he had a goal/why he was even helping the l'Cie in the first place. This really is such a flaw with the game (or possibly not, but given the difficulty of accessing the novella officially) that *now* I'm really wanting to revisit it armed with all that knowledge and watch how things develop (and understand NORA and how they're a microcosm of the storyline/Cid's struggle - they don't want to rely on Cocoon anymore so are trying to become self-reliant).
Ah! Tis okay. Yeah, I would hope the XIII l'Cie would be so wary of a higher power and accepting them at their word - and heh. Yeah Snow's reasoning probably was he needed his powers back to track down Lightning... Heh. Yeah Hope could be a l'Cie too, just without magic (and the l'Cie brand in XIII-2 does seem to have slowed Snow's aging massively). Not a good idea as you say... (thinking about it, there is still so much unknown about the l'Cie and the brands. The implications in XIII always seemed to have the focus as being relatively short-term. In as little as days or weeks for completion. But for Snow that focus must have a massive time-span on it for him to be still going 500 to 1000 years after being branded. Maybe that's why he's not aging...)
Good point; Noel and Snow might wind up like Atlas; seemingly plot important but in the end very neglected. Though; I did see that same note about recurring struggles (I think it was Noel) which doesn't really instill confidence. And yeah that Snow has put guards up to precent her getting to him. Damn him and his Sentinel paradigm!
Haha - yeah I read that Snow's fal'Cie this time around is Cactuar. And... um... sorry SE? Are we supposed to take this seriously? Cactuars are damnably nasty, but not the most elegant, fantastical or godly of the summon spells (which seems the partial basis for them). Its just trying to imagine the branding moment of XIII but with a giant Cactuar at the centre just reads as hilarious (okay, so the fal'Cie might not look like a giant Cactuar, but in the absence of seeing it, what else are we going to think?). And is there some reason Snow got branded at the same point? And I'm still stuck on Cactuar of all things. So many other fal'Cie to choose from! (and I should go look at the Fragments Before in a bit more detail)
Yeah, I'm not sure what they would add as an epilogue to X-2; the get Tidus back ending seemed a decent point to leave that pair on (flashing forward a few years sounds like it would be a mistake - as I don't think we need to see Tidus and Yuna's kids which is unfortunately likely). I'm also wondering how it'll play given X-2 is setup so you can't get the best ending the first time (and I never managed fairly and just watched it on Youtube) so does it play automatically or do you need the best ending from X-2 first? This feels like it might be an unwelcome Compilation-like addition to those games; altering something unnecessarily/making the ambiguous future now certain. We shall see though...
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Date: 2013-07-12 02:32 am (UTC)...Wow, I totally don't remember this. I do at least remember Mog being invisible, but I cannot tell you anything else about that sequence so. Sorry. I have hit the limits of my XIII-2 knowledge.
I suppose it might explain why Noel is so eager to comply with Lightning's request/sticks with Serah so closely/causes all that ambiguity, but then it never extends past the Farron sisters. I suppose it might be bewildering to have so many new people around, but maybe he should have been clingier with everyone
No, I do think that's a fair point that bewilderment doesn't totally account for--his only signs of having been a bit starved for human companionship (to put it mildly) are with the Farrons. Like I can see him trying to rein himself in since he's on a mission, and it's hard for me to picture Noel rambling away for anything, but it seems like--he could be more astounded to be in a living village, to see NORA all together and be a bit envious of the companionship they've been able to enjoy.
VII is close with Holy/The Planet being the ultimate saving force, but that couldn't happen until Avalanche went to the Planet core and defeated Sephiroth
I do think they also manage to undercut it with Cid's comparing the Planet to a sick child they have to take care of. And it was already implied a bit in the game, but Compilation (Case of Barret) made it explicit that the will of the Planet is in part dependent on humanity, because guess what some of the dead are? The Planet is interesting in being both alien and inseparably connected to humanity at once. AND YES, I WAS ABLE TO GET INTO THE N-ZONE. As you saw. Haha. My...mistake was actually a really, really dumb one: at a certain point, multiple locations get sucked into the Void, and what's left are black holes that are exactly identical. ...Only one takes you into the N-Zone (why?!). So my problem was really the very simple and dumb one of me forgetting which one had sucked me in (even though a guide specified it as "the one where _____ was". Without being able to see that landmark anymore, and with the landscape having changed for plot reasons, I was mentally misplacing where it'd been by a good chunk of map). The amazing thing was I somehow managed to find every other hole in the map (there's like five or six in total) wondering if it was some sort of randomised trigger and had switched to another one before stumbling back on the original hole and being sucked in for a moment of great confusion and who-cares-this-is-great-my-file's-not-broken delight.
I pretty much always do one dumb thing every time I first play a game. And yes, Geomancers are VERY awesome for mid-to-late game (at the very end game too many enemies were being immune/healed by elements so I stopped trying it). I am rather pleased Aerith being based on them is still reflected in her limit breaks using different elements it's the little thiiiings.
I'm not totally sure though, as Cecil's conversion to a paladin is very much a more powerful force re-doing his class
Ah. You know I thought about that but in a totally different way, since all I was thinking about is how he has to symbolically fight against his sins/past to change. I forgot all about a higher power being involved. But yeah, that is relatively early on.
The funny thing is, Etro interfering wasn't even made a note of in the game. Like, while it was a convenient plot twist, it wasn't attributed to anything divine and I'm pretty sure I'd thought it was a sign of the fal'Cie being out of power or Vanille and Fang's doing--a miracle, yes, but not from a goddess.
Then came the novellas. And XIII-2. But really on the point of theme I'd say XIII is one of the most overt about human willpower, it just has a hot mess of a plot that confuses things and makes it necessary to have some. Conveniences.
It is possible they might reverse it, but there seemed to be some weird implications from the trailer; like what looked like a church which gave me the feel of a hub of operations for some reason.
Actually I do remember one of Light's enemies is a cult of Bhunivelze which gives me some hope of reversal (while Lightning is taking orders from Bhunivelze, there's clearly something else going on there...). Though I can't actually tell from that description if you might be talking about the Bhunivelze cult or the Ark which is the protagonist base of operations XD; And yeah, I'm really just stuck on how well it makes sense for Lightning. Especially since they said for this game they were going back to the "old" Lightning (S-E it's only been like 4 years, she is not that 'old' already). Hmm.
but I honestly can't remember if Sazh ever mentioned the reason he got on the Pulse train was to fulfill Dahj's focus for him
If it was I wouldn't be so annoyed about the writing hahaha I'm pretty sure the game doesn't even make it clear he was willingly there, not being forced into the Purge (he may have guns tied to combat pilots but the game is pretty clear about him being a civilian pilot). Admittedly though it does make it slightly weird that even though the Sanctum is trying to Purge the whole town... out of the four protagonists on the train, three are there completely willingly and the 'forced' one is a child. The fifth isn't on the train... nor are his other four compatriots. Even though they live in Bodhum.
Yeah, great security there Sanctum. Anyway, I did find it cute for Rosch to play with Dajh. Might be good to replay the game with those things in mind? Though I have to admit the beginning usually annoys me so badly for the long-limited combat/party system.
The implications in XIII always seemed to have the focus as being relatively short-term. In as little as days or weeks for completion. But for Snow that focus must have a massive time-span on it for him to be still going 500 to 1000 years after being branded. Maybe that's why he's not aging...
No, I don't think it's the Focus. In XIII-2 Snow is traveling in time like Serah and Noel are, remember? Then in Lightning Returns, time no longer flows because of the chaos; no one is aging (heck Noel's pants aren't even wearing out because he's still wearing the same thing. ...and Hope is somehow younger.) and his brand likely isn't progressing for the same reason. So he hasn't actually spent all those years in the Focus, he's been hopping around in time with it--for all we know it was weeks by how the brand grows.
...That said I just read the FF wiki's more detailed explanation of the XIII-2 novellas and I'm kind of just. "Oh, right, SURE" by Snow's role in it. Maybe I really should replay XIII-2, because I don't remember anything in his cameo suggesting he had seen Serah's death... Though his Focus to be fighting alongside Serah at "her fated battle" gives a little more background to him suddenly bargining in during the Paradox Ending where he rides off with Serah: that's presumably the timeline where he fulfills it.
Oh, Snow. Doomed to failure because the plot demands the player take the trap. Ha, ha, ha.
From the sound of the novella descriptions though, Cactuar does indeed look like a giant cactuar. ...And seems like it's supposed to be in some part comedic because it's a fal'Cie that can't remember it's a fal'Cie what even. ONLY SNOW WOULD GET THIS ONE. ...Okay Sazh might've gotten it too if Snow hadn't.
I started wondering, actually, if they might do an epilogue that is a few years down the road, but just kind of an update on Spira in general and the progress it's made as a world--that can be done without getting jumbled in the multiple endings, even if it doesn't seem all that necessary either.
...And then I have to admit I thought of them using the new epilogue to try to tie in the X-VII connection again somehow and went NO. Please let them not do anything like that.
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Date: 2013-07-12 07:16 pm (UTC)Ah that is a good point. Noel should find NORA fascinating when he meets them, or at least I can see him wandering the place while Serah makes her decision just questioning thousands of mundane details that are nevertheless utterly fascinating to him as its so different to the time he's from. And true, he would try to rein himself in on missions (and I can see him coping better with either desolate or sparsely populated regions - Vile Peaks would be one of the least daunting), but even if he can cope with New Bodhum without betraying how new this all is to him, surely something like 400/4XXAF should really faze him to see that many people in the same place... I think Serah's more impressed with the future city then Noel is...
Heh - that is an interesting idea that the Planet's will is in part dependent on humanity, and so part alien intelligence beyond human comprehension and at the same time inextricably linked to the humans living on it. Interesting. Heh; yeah I saw about FFV. That does seem really odd about the N-Zone though. Sounds like they wanted that one for plot/world/story reasons as the gateway to the final dungeon, but it does sound like it would make more sense for all the holes to take you to the N-Zone - especially if that's where the object formerly there now are!
I'm still on the second world (in the Forest of Moore), and realising I might be changing jobs too quickly as no one can currently use curaga which is a bit of an issue. And I possibly should have used Blue Mages earlier as they know no abilities currently. Oop. But the Geomancer job is very fun, and yeah nice to see the origins of Aeris's limit breaks like that.
The funny thing is, Etro interfering wasn't even made a note of in the game.
So much this. When I did finally complete XIII I was... confused as to how the party decrystallised. I did assume basically the same as you; either Vanille and Fang interfered somehow, or the fal'Cie was no longer around to impose crystal stasis... very much a miracle, but not one from a higher power (actually I might not have been paying too close attention as I really didn't think they'd have the nerve to let the entire cast crystallise at the end, so I was expecting them to evade that fate somehow, but really had no idea how they would pulll it off). And heh - yeah then the novellas turned up to pin down the ambiguity (I do think I need to rewatch the ending, as things like forcing the gate of Etro wide I just don't remember in-game, or at least really wasn't sure what was going on anymore). That's true, XIII really is the one most about human willpower/defiance of a higher power like that, but the plot exposition was terribly done (I fully admit to being so very shakey on the plot. Reading it on the wikis keeps making me wish I'd know half of it at the time as it actually sounds good as a plotline, what various entity's goals were, why the Cocoon fal'Cie wanted the place destroyed...), and there were all those conveniences...
(It does feel that maybe they shouldn't have tried for the dramatic start. Thinking back, had they opened the game differently the plot progression might have worked better/there wouldn't be those annoying gaps in character development. Its tough to say they should have as that really slows down the pace of the game start, and I can see the appeal of a dramatic start; IV, V, VI, VII, X, XII (kinda. Well the Reks stuff is dramatic but then it goes mundane with Vaan hunting rats). VIII I'm not sure on as the opening FMV is exciting and dramatic but then things really slow down until the Fire Cave, and IX feels similar with the events in and around Alexandria and the setup for the play. But then its difficult. I want to say maybe opening with Serah's entrance into the Vestige would have made a better start, but that would have given her seeming greater importance (though actually about on level with Reks), and be able to play through that section. I can see leaving some of Vanille and Fang's sequences out for later dramatic reveal, but Fang needed the meeting with Cid and Rydgea at least. Basically the flashback sequences needed to be put into chronological sequence with the game for the most part)
(also interesting; for all the human will defying the higher powers plotlines, the game Lost Odyssey is a bit of an odd idea in that context. Its only on the Xbox 360 but was produced by Mistwalker, which was Sakaguchi's new company after he left Square. The game plays very much like FFs, but on reflection LO is odd as a lot of the main characters are immortals - tougher and more powerful then the human cast, who learn abilities off the immortals (whereas the immortals can't learn new abilities - I think). I never got to the end of the game, but I would be surprised if the human cast was left to deal with the final fights on their own given the number of immortal characters/their plot entanglement. Its interesting that the same creator who was working on IV-VIII would then go and do a game that did hinge on there being these human-like, but definitely more powerful characters)
Ah! I'm not sure either. There's a structure Lightning approaches at one point - which might be within the Ark admittedly, but it was just an assumption based off of the trailer footage. At least there is some hope for a reversal in the end... And yeah those comments about the "old" Lightning are confusing for both those reasons; she is a very recent character - its not like they're digging up Terra having put her through various character alterations, or maybe Cloud and reverting him back to how he behaved in VII or something...
Heh - yeah XIII really didn't make it clear that Sazh was there willingly (in fact the reveal about Dahj lead to rapid confusion of where had he been while you were off shooting at PSICOM?), it really felt like he wanted to stick with Lightning as she seemed capable of keeping herself safe and by extension him. And that's both before boarding the train and after getting off at Hanging Edge. In fact I don't remember him expressing any desire to go over to the Vestige. The whole purge thing does just confuse; they are taking out the whole town - which feels like a villainous military over-reaction to something - there are many in fiction. That's okay. But its that NORA weren't captured (and got to Hanging Edge before the train, and disabled the train, and Lightning always looked like she knew that was coming), and that you can understand the over-zealous military reaction if there was no way to tell who was a l'Cie or not. But... they have those brands. They have *Dahj*. There might even be other ways of detecting a l'Cie. There was no need to destroy the town. And yeah, even beyond that, there was only one l'Cie on the train at the time, and she got on voluntarily, as did two other future l'Cie and Hope being the only one of them ordered to get on (admittedly the novella helps by no one having had experience of dealing with a l'Cie in the last 600 years, but still).
Heh - yeah, that is the problem with wanting to replay XIII now, the extreme limitations on party make-up/paradigms during the first stages (and there's the fight with Odin which I never enjoy).
Ah, good point on Snow - I just wasn't sure how far to take his paradox ending. I'd been assuming that he wound up at Sunleth due to the paradox they resolved, so he'd been transported from 3AF to the future by that paradox and when it resolved he went right the way back in time. It does make sense if he is bouncing around in time though, and that's a neater explanation. And heh - yeah no one's aging in LR - and Hope's gone in reverse...
...I think I need to read up on the XIII-2 novellas as well. I don't remember any of his cameo appearances (Sunleth, the Colesium or the Paradox ending) suggesting he knew Serah was going to die/had seen her death (I *really* can't see him being unable to blurt that out/try to avert that future). The fighting alongside her does help with the outcome of that paradox ending... and heh - yeah, Snow doomed to fail and Serah doomed to die because of plot-dictation.
Wow. I'm glad we don't see Snow's conversion to a l'Cie again as that still looks hysterical in my head. And yeah, only Snow could find a fal'Cie that can't remember its a fal'Cie. Or maybe Sazh. But it still seems odd that the fal'Cie would behave like that...
Ah, yeah a bit on the new progressing Spira sounds nice, especially if it steers clear of the potentially happy couple. That would be okay, but unnecessary... but yeah, now you mention the idea of reinforcing the X-VII link - do not want. Definitely *anything* other then that (its bad but there are those mutterings from a while back of how the VII story isn't quite over/there have been hints that something might be in the works for the game's 20th anniversary. Please SE - not that, they never needed to be linked, and we've been studiously ignoring it for the most part).
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Date: 2013-07-13 01:44 pm (UTC)I remember this too, which was kind of...Serah, it hasn't been that long since you lived in Cocoon. Meanwhile I highly doubt a city like this existed anywhere in Noel's lifetime given the dwindling population. But Noel is just like 'yeah whatever' like seeing the ruins of cities is the exact same as seeing an actual living, functioning city.
Hahah, yeah, the final dungeon in V is made up of a mishmash of world locales, somewhat like IX was--so it really is kind of odd that only one hole would take to the N-Zone. I did just remember, though, that there's a minor plot event that goes on prior to the final dungeon that could explain it: a character was taken to the N-Zone and rescued from it, and that would have been the hole they went in/presumably emerged from. Might have something to do with why that one's still sucking up things and the others aren't.
I'm still on the second world (in the Forest of Moore), and realising I might be changing jobs too quickly as no one can currently use curaga which is a bit of an issue. And I possibly should have used Blue Mages earlier as they know no abilities currently.
I couldn't use curaga until late game XD But I think you are just past where I learned Pep Up (that enemy is by Lugor Bordertown, in the wilderness after everyone gets thrown by ex-death's barrier going up).
as things like forcing the gate of Etro wide I just don't remember in-game
Not sure it's a gate of Etro (since it's to the maker), but they were trying to open a gate with killing everyone, though I can kind of see why you wouldn't remember because it's not actually seen.
The dramatic start is one of the stumbling blocks; tying into what you said about Sazh too, it feels like the dramatic start was based on a first draft of the characters and how they relate to each other, largely with Sazh and Lightning, while the rest of the game is a second draft. Because yeah, while Sazh does jump into the fight against Anima he in no way seems like he was looking to be there... when really that's the whole reason he was on the train. Opening with Serah really would have been nice and interesting. I don't think Fang meeting Cid and Rygdea would've worked chronologically, but they could have flashed back to it like they did other Fang and Vanille scenes, or the three characters involved could have just referenced it enough in dialogue for players to be able to get an idea.
...Okay, your description of Lost Odyssey and then the first paragraph I read on wikipedia together made me think "So this is Final Fantasy VI if Terra was a male full-blooded esper, huh?" ('The player takes control of Kaim, a man who has lived for a thousand years and who has no memory of his past. The game is set in a world nearing a "magical industrial revolution." Kaim struggles with the return of his memories and the pain they bring.') In light of that thought I can't be too surprised Sakaguchi is involved with it, though yes, it's still a change.
The whole point of the Purge isn't actually about getting rid of l'Cie. That's what the military thinks they're doing, but Dysley wants people to stay afraid of Cocoon. That's why anyone who's even come into the slightest contact with anything Pulse gets purged, to keep up that feeling that Pulse is menacing and evil. If they'd efficiently removed any l'Cie using Dajh and declared Bodhum safe people would stop feeling afraid because pffft, look how swiftly that threat from Pulse was taken care of! What do they need to be afraid of?
Though the military is still somewhat evil in that even if the ground troops might agree with the idea of the Purge...there's orders that military are exempt from Purge. Which means they either know simple contact isn't a risk, or they're willing to take that risk for some but not, say, keep surveillance on Bodhum to determine if there's any l'Cie among the population, nope, just kill them all off now.
...I think I need to read up on the XIII-2 novellas as well. I don't remember any of his cameo appearances (Sunleth, the Colesium or the Paradox ending) suggesting he knew Serah was going to die/had seen her death (I *really* can't see him being unable to blurt that out/try to avert that future)
Apparently that he became a l'Cie is because he was trying to avert that death (he was only seeing flashes, so I think he must have thought she died because of the battle, not realizing about the visions?) But that he became a l'Cie for it means he already knows in all of his XIII-2 appearances--which really doesn't seem like the case, I would have expected a slightly different tone in his interaction with Serah even if he was trying to cover it up so as not to alarm her.
Ahaha. I think people usually have taken "VII's story isn't quite over" as "game after Dirge using Genesis somehow" (granted, that's not the most appealing thing either) but it'd be weird if they tied it to X that way too.
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