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raajActually this time I'm not really upset about anything I've written. It's that what I've written isn't yet fitting into a cohesive thing. I can't seem to get a handle on what the driving points for these parts are, and as a result I'm pretty much getting to the point where I can't even make myself write more for it: I tweak stuff, rearrange sections, and... so little is actually properly complete as a scene or transitioning into each other because I don't know what scenes I even want to keep (this is way too long considering no scene in here is actually all the way complete). So yeah, warning, this is seriously messy to read.
Kind of debating just posting the first chapter as its own standalone and leaving the rest, well, alone. I like the idea of the story, it's the telling I can't figure out.
To start off with, HERE IS A BIT I CAN ACTUALLY CONSIDER COMPLETE even if I don't know it'll appear in the final draft of the story. (In fact it almost seems like with a bit of editing it could probably be its own thing as Tifa introspection.)
Cloud tells her, Aerith sent him a dream. That's how he knew she's headed for the City of the Ancients.
It doesn't hurt. Not harshly. The thought just sits there in Tifa's mind, lacking the good grace to know it's long overstayed its welcome.
A dream of peace and a promise. It sounds like something from a fairy tale, a more ethereal romance. It tempts a daydreamer to believe in soulmates—which, to be honest, Tifa never really has before. Cloud was her sweetheart always, her soulmate never. There is a connection, an understanding implied in 'soulmates' that she has never been able to pretend to with the blond, whose blue eyes hide thoughts she can't fathom. Even when they were both kids, he was hard to understand. She remembers that. It's getting harder to remember anything else about their friendship now.
If she had been made to claim anyone on this Planet as her soulmate...she thinks she would have said Aerith, the beautiful woman with hopeful green eyes. They had clicked so quickly, always breaking off from the others to do something together or teaming up when someone stubborn needed convincing, often without words. But--
But Aerith sent Cloud the dream. And for Tifa, there had only been a lie and excuse about why and where she was going out. "Stretching my legs!" Right. Aerith was stretching her legs across two continents.
Tifa understands well enough why she was lied to. Oh, she disagrees with it, but she understands. She would have stopped Aerith, she would have insisted on coming along, and even in the dream (as Cloud says, since she didn't have it) her friend didn't want to be followed. Rationally, it makes sense why Aerith carried things out the way she did, wanting what she did, even if Tifa Lockhart chafes at being kept away. So it doesn't hurt, not harshly.
But it still stings. That she was lied to. That Cloud got a proper explanation in their dream. Heh, "their" dream. If two people can share a dream, they really are connected, aren't they? In a bond that space and distance itself can't stretch out to fray.
Tifa had already known that night in Gold Saucer that she was going to get left behind. Once Aerith had made up her mind to pursue Cloud... Tifa hadn't even been able to choose then, or now, which one she loved more, which one she should confess to, and they'd been drawing ever steadily closer to each other. But to think, she'd been worried about something as ordinary as them kissing, when as it just so happened Aerith could touch Cloud's soul halfway around the world.
Had she ever stood a chance in this little love triangle?
So that's that. And then, backtracking a bit, here is the odds and ends and I swear I just cannot write anything long.
Aerith slept. Tifa didn't, keeping watch over her when she wasn't fretting over Cloud. He was dead to the world; wouldn't wake. But then, it was a near unanimous sentiment to let him take his time on that account. On the other hand Aerith needed to be woken up, every couple of hours, to make sure the concussion wasn't affecting her—it was never easy to tell with those if restorative materia had fully done the job. The smallness of Gongaga's inn meant a short patrol for Tifa as she paced between the two beds opposite each other in the tiny circular room, trying to count down the time and weighing counter impulses between letting Aerith recover from her exhaustion and wanting to make sure she would still wake, as well as to see if she might be able to explain any more of just what had happened in the pit that had been the Temple's foundation. One or two of the other members of their party were always in the inn as well, but the whole nine-man team was simply too big for the establishment, and after some discussion (and arguing, and uncertain looks that had hurt with their aim), they were mostly split up throughout the town. Gathering supplies and trying to figure out their next move, ostensibly.
Playing a waiting game as they wondered if the world might really come to an end.
The first time Aerith was carefully shook awake, she'd immediately spoken Cloud's name as a question, turning her head sharply to try catching sight of him. When she spotted him, the relieved sigh that passed her lips almost hurt to hear. "He's here, yeah," Tifa said needlessly. "We're back in Gongaga."
"He hasn't woken up?"
"No." The concern in Aerith's faint voice was heartening and frustrating all at once. If she was worried for Cloud even now, did she really not blame him? Tifa was glad for that, but she wanted to know why, so everyone could be reassured. …So she could be okay with the fact that Aerith was still bruised and disheveled from an assault that could have killed her, and already forgiving. "Aerith, do you think you can stay awake for a little while? We still don't know what happened down there…what happened to you and Cloud. And the Black Materia is…"
Tifa was already bracing herself as her friend's face grew dark and pinched, upset. The flower girl broke her gaze from their still-sleeping friend to answer: "Sephiroth has it."
A curse floated from the doorway; of course Cid was listening. Vincent surely was too, if more controlled in his reactions. After she'd carried Aerith out of the pit, Barret after her hauling Cloud like a sack of potatoes, Nanaki and Cait Sith had called up that they couldn't find the Black Materia in the pit. Tifa and Barret had each done a quick check of their unconscious passengers, but the materia seemed to have vanished. Immediately the gunman had yelled down demanding if this wasn't another fast one being pulled by Shinra, but Cait Sith was adamant that he'd done nothing fishy in the few minutes he'd been down in the pit—as though Nanaki's sharp eyes and hearing wouldn't have caught him out; they could check him too if they wanted! And it was testament to the tension running through the group that even with everyone aware of how unlikely the possibility was, Vincent actually did check the robot, just to put the nail in that coffin and lay it to rest. The narrow window of circumstance left a short list of suspects, and Sephiroth's name had topped it as the group remembered his strange movements, how he could have slipped past even the most careful watch. Tifa's heart still knotted like a noose to hear it confirmed.
"Then he's going to summon Meteor." And Nanaki's explanation of Sephiroth's plan for that particular spell had been chilling: if there was any truth in it, they were all in big trouble. If it was all true… the world really could come to an end.
"We still have time. He needs the Promised Land…" Aerith drifted off to silence, staring over Tifa's shoulder at what the fighter knew was just the brick wall of the hut; the room's entrance was on her other side.
"Aerith?"
Now she was looking at the door. And then the injured woman was trying to push herself off the bed. Even before her bruises made her stop short with a wince, Tifa was up on her feet, holding one hand out to stop her friend.
"No way. You need to rest."
"But, the Planet—"
"You said we still have time, right? So take a rest. You could tell me what it's saying." Not that Tifa really knew what to make of talking to the Planet; the only spirits she'd ever worked with were the alcoholic kind. But it was evident Aerith had talked to something in the temple…and even if she was the only who could hear it, that didn't mean others couldn't help her do whatever was needed, right?
There was so much tension knotted up in the brawler's limbs. She would have raced out and done just about anything, anything the Planet could ask, if it would fix this situation. If it would guarantee Cloud's eyes opening with clarity and calm, if it would mean Aerith could rest, if it would make everyone safe.
"I… I don't know. It's not clear," the Ancient admitted falteringly, sinking the hope of such a simple fix.
Tifa let out a slow breath. "Then we can't do anything yet. We need some sort of plan."
She had the strength to be firm, especially when the other woman's eyes were still murky with exhaustion; if Aerith wouldn't worry about herself, someone needed to. In the end the woman agreed to lie back down, 'for a little bit', and almost immediately slipped back into sleep. Tifa adjusted the pillow under the woman's head and fretted with the edges of her blanket, as her hands lacked anything better to do.
Cid summed up the situation: "Well, fuck!"
Cloud continued to sleep, and Tifa wondered, as she seemed to have countless times since finding him, what exactly was on his mind. Had he fully realized the trouble they were now in? Was that why had he snapped?
There still wasn't anything they could do, and it was starting to drive her mad.
Hours passed before Aerith was woken up again. The exhaustion in her eyes had turned into sadness. "Everyone's hurting."
That hit a little too close to home with how tense the group was, and Tifa shook her head. "What do you mean?"
"…Screaming…"
Tifa pursed her lips, sitting down by the side of the bed. Obviously her friend hadn't gotten the hoped-for restful sleep. "...Nanaki never heard Cloud scream."
"Ah?" Aerith's eyes flicked up to the ceiling without focusing on it. "...Oh." Her hands clasped gently under her chest, beginning to rise and fall with her breath. She closed her eyes for just a few seconds, and by the time Tifa recognized she might be praying--it was a gesture seen so rarely nowadays--her eyes were already open again. "No. I suppose he wouldn't have."
"I don't get it. What does that even mean? You were just hearing the Planet? But you sounded so sure he was hurt," Tifa blurted out, and almost winced at her pleading. But Aerith probably understood. She was concerned for Cloud too.
"I know what Cloud sounds like," Aerith said. Her voice was firm. "I've been listening, and watching, for him. For a while now. But I didn't know what to make of it."
Paying attention to Cloud? Tifa wasn't surprised, not after that night at the Gold Saucer, but that sting of petty jealousy was so slight at the moment. "Didn't know what to make of it?"
The other woman actually looked timid for a split-second, like she wanted to swallow back the very words she was clearly mulling over. "I thought... you would have said if something was really wrong with Cloud. You know him best of all of us."
For a moment, Tifa didn't react at all, her face slack at the unexpected statement. Aerith saw something wrong with Cloud too? So it wasn't just her... and then her cheeks colored at the implication she should have said something. And what would she have said? All she would have done was cast doubt on Cloud when she wasn't even sure he was the one wrong.
But any anger Tifa felt over the issue was pierced by the reality of where they were and where she'd wanted to be. Aerith herself had been laid up in bed by whatever was wrong with Cloud, and he was unconscious. Everyone was worried, even if they wouldn't show it. Would things be different if she'd said there was something off...? Tifa really had wanted to confide in someone all along. She'd wanted to confide in Aerith, she'd thought about it herself so many times, but the occasion had never been right.
No...she'd just never stopped being scared that the moment she admitted doubt in Cloud, she'd lose him again.
Aerith took in her silence and slowly nodded. "It's all right, Tifa. I could have said something too. It's pretty complicated, I guess... no, I know it is."
**
It was late in the night now since they'd gotten back from the temple. Tifa's body was already tired from travel and the scant sleep from the night before. She tried sitting down but the hard floors of the Gongaga Inn borne from poverty in the village made uncomfortable seating, little chance of resting on them. She found herself staring enviously at the beds. It was...those were the only way she could rest and be by Aerith and Cloud. Surely Aerith would not begrudge sharing the bed, right? Even after thinking it, and convincing herself of the truth of that thought, it still took Tifa a whole ten minutes to creep into the bed. She halted when Aerith's dark green eyes opened at her, but before she could apologize she realized there was no confusion or objection in them.
Aerith's hand lighted on her arm and tugged insistently. Tifa had to shift more and more into the bed, lying down beside her friend who curled in to nestle close. The girl's eyes were already closing again, but still Tifa wrapped one protective arm over her.
"It'll be all right," Tifa said quietly. "We're strong. We can get through this." Words she needed someone to say to her, words she knew Aerith needed to hear herself. It had to hurt, hearing the screams of a Planet. The screams of a friend as he was forced to betray. But Aerith was strong, stronger than her, smiling so often when there was little reason to. And she would shield Aerith, as much as possible.
She curled into Aerith, her head resting against the other girl's collarbone, thinking Aerith must be able to feel the lie of false confidence when she had to resist the urge to cling for dear life.
After a peaceful sleep that was too brief, that resistance failed when she felt the other woman pulling out from beneath her grasp; stuck between Tifa and the wall on each side, Aerith had decided instead to scoot downward along the bed and ease herself off its foot, slipping from beneath Tifa's arm. But Tifa's fingers tightened on her before the woman was fully out. "Aerith? Where are you going?"
"For a walk," Aerith said. "How long have I been asleep? It was much too long."
"No it wasn't. It was only..." Tifa was the one muddled by sleep now; she could tell Aerith how long she'd been asleep before being joined on the bed, but she had no idea of any track of time after that--the windowless state of the room definitely didn't help with that. She was so exhausted, her body's clock thoroughly out of sync, that it could have been morning, midnight, afternoon, how would she know?
She'd see outside. They were going on a walk. She pushed herself upright, trying to blink sleep from her eyes, but before she could swing up onto her feet there was a hand at her shoulder.
"Oh, Tifa. What are you doing?"
"I'll go with..."
"You've been watching over us this whole time, haven't you? You look so exhausted I feel like yawning all over again looking at you. Let yourself rest, Tifa."
Sleep did sound good. Really, really good—especially when the mere mention of yawning was suggestive enough for her traitorous mouth to do just that as soon as she opened it. "D...don't...go far. Everyone's been worried about you."
"I'll be back soon."
Tifa nodded, accepting her friend's word; though rather than lay back down, she dragged a bit of the blanket around her shoulders, feeling its extra warmth from body heat, and tracked Aerith blearily as she passed Yuffie with a smile and a blithe remark about needing to stretch her legs. She...did seem okay on her feet. Direct, not disoriented. So her concussion was truly healed then, a blessed reassurance. And she'd be back soon. Tifa wanted to wait for her to come back, but all too soon exhaustion pulled the caretaker back down into a blank, silent sleep.
"Tifa."
The body heat had dissipated. There was cold metal on her shoulder that made her fidget until realizing it was Vincent's metal claw resting on her, and then she jumped again because Vincent was never inclined to disturb others except for watch duty. "Wha, wha--is it my turn?" Were they taking turns here? She hadn't even thought to ask before.
Vincent ignored the question for the sleep-addled nonsense it was, instead crouching down slightly in front of the bed to meet her eyes. "Did Aerith tell you where she would be?"
"Out for a walk…she should be back soon."
His pale face was impassive. "She told Yuffie the same, but her 'walk' has been nearly four hours now."
Oh, God. She hadn't been well after all; she was probably collapsed in a faint somewhere. "We have to look for her—"
"We began searching two hours ago. She's not in the village," the former Turk summed up precisely, and Tifa felt both foolish and more frightened. Of course the others would have realized before now that something was wrong. Aerith could be easily distracted during her ventures, talk with locals turning "fifteen minutes" into "an hour" when the group was resting somewhere, but she was reliable when things got serious. Right now, they were dire. "We've begun sweeping the jungle… but it seemed prudent to check if she had said any more to you."
"No. She said she'd be right back… I don't understand. What could have happened?" The blanket's fabric became security as Tifa clutched it closer to her shoulders. "…We shouldn't have stopped here. Not after the last time. If Shinra took her—do you think she could have been?"
She was worrying now, openly fretting, and anyone else probably would have told her to calm down. At the moment, she was glad Vincent was the way he was, and willing to consider such possibilities. It still only took him a few seconds to shake his head. "There would have been a struggle. No one has seen or heard any evidence of that. I would say, more than likely… she's left of her own accord. Perhaps she finally made out what the Planet was telling her."
"You believe her, don't you, Vincent?"
"I've seen too much to be skeptical of such a claim." He straightened up. "We'll keep looking."
Tifa gritted her teeth, her hands folding up into fists. Damn it, why had her friend lied to her?! She wouldn't have stopped Aerith from going; she would have gone with, and kept an eye on her... someone else could watch Cloud, he was just sleeping, and he'd probably be okay, he hadn't even been injured, concerning as the assault on Aerith was.
**
When Cloud let out a soft moan, Tifa stopped still in her tracks, turning to him. Barret was also sharp at attention--enough to catch Tifa by the shoulder when the moaning continued and she started to approach Cloud, to wake him from the apparent nightmare.
Remembering what had happened when she'd shared a tent with Cloud near this town, she was glad for Barret's mindfulness. It was much too likely that he'd come back swinging, just as he'd gone out. It was already obvious as his jaw clenched and his fingers twitched that he was struggling against the dream.
"No...no! Come back!"
The next moment, Cloud's eyes opened, and they focused narrowly on Barret and Tifa. Clarity and calm were what she'd hoped would grace his expression, but he was wild-eyed and face twisted up, looking horrified.
He was aware, though. It was apparent by just how quickly his face settled again into something more controlled, even if his eyes still betrayed upset.
"You looked like you was havin' a nightmare," Barret told him. "How are you feeling?"
The first look Cloud gave him could easily have been interpreted as 'no shit', flat as it was. But the question seemed to be the final push he needed to get himself fully back to normal, blinking the last remnants of a restless sleep away: "...I seem to be okay now."
"That's good. For a while there I wasn't sure how things were going."
What were they talking like this for? Tifa knew Cloud, she knew Barret knew him--he wasn't going to spill his heart over a nightmare. "Cloud, Aerith is missing."
So they had to go now. He was awake, he was aware, he was probably shook up about what had happened because they all had been but for god's sake, Aerith was missing. She could be killed. They had to find her straight away.
She wasn't expecting Cloud to actually know where Aerith was.
"...City of the Ancients. Aerith is headed there."
That--sounded familiar, though Tifa couldn't quite place it. The answer sure got Barret in a fury, though, and Tifa immediately guessed: it was far, dangeous, or both. Well, it wasn't like the Temple of the Ancients had been easily accessible either.
"By herself?! Why'd she go by herself? Hey, we're going, too."
"Only the Ancients, only Aerith can save us from Meteor..."
"Then we MUST go," Tifa said, growing nervous. Cloud didn't sound like himself. Because really, any time Aerith was in danger or doing something that might be dangerous, he was there to be overly sensible. Sometimes annoyingly so, depending on how he phrased his objection. "What'll we do if something happens to Aerith? If Sephiroth finds her, she's in trouble."
Cloud didn't exactly freeze on the bed; he hadn't been moving in the first place. But movement became even more unlikely in that moment, with his eyes staying fastened toward the ground. "Sephiroth... already knows."
"Hey! Why are you still sitting around?" Barret demanded.
Exactly what Tifa had wanted to say, so she didn't reiterate it, upset as she was. They just needed to get moving. Before Aerith was taken from them. "Let's go, Cloud."
Something inside her crumpled when he did, folding in on himself on the bed and cradling his head like it could break. "No… I'm afraid. If this keeps up, I might go crazy! I'm afraid…"
Afraid he might be the one to hurt her? Was he really that unstable?
**
The point where it gets EVEN MESSIER TO READ because haha writing:
Cloud wanted to be by Tifa, as much as he wanted to be by anyone at all. He still didn't have a good explanation for his actions in the pit of the once Temple and it scared him. He'd wanted Aerith to--tell me who I am--but she hadn't, couldn't. She had to go save the world. That sense of goodness that radiated from her eyes, like they were reflecting something only she could perceive in him, quickly vanished. It had felt like there was no way he could do anything for her.
Tifa and Barret had quickly raged at him, promises of knocks upside the head and quiet pleas that they must go save Aerith getting him back up on his feet, and once there... yeah, he was annoyed with himself too. He had been a SOLDIER. He wasn't going to fail her by doing nothing.
Still...it...scared him, the moment the world had slipped out of focus and he had practically been outside his body, watching himself hand over the materia. He'd screamed at himself, tried to hold his own body back, but in the end nothing had worked; the materia had been handed over to Sephiroth.
And then... then...
He'd beaten Aerith. Tifa had told him, with a pinched, unhappy face, that that was the reason he now had jagged claw marks over the back of his left shoulder: he'd been beating Aerith, and after Nanaki had failed to get any response by yelling at him the feline had pounced on him to bring him to the ground.
Cloud barely remembered any yelling under the heavy tinnitus ringing not in his ears but in his head; but Tifa was honest. So the only thing to do had been thank Nanaki--quickly, without fuss, but it needed to be said.
'You did the right thing. If I'm a threat, take me out.'
Nanaki's actions, Barret's words...yes, he knew he could trust in his party if he went wild. But...
But he wasn't really sure...if a second time would find him coming back to normal. It felt like he was unraveling, and badly. It scared him. Like he was weaving offstep--he just didn't want to go crazy like that again.
So...so he was gravitating to Tifa. Even though she was looking away from him. It's because he's letting down her best friend. He understands that, so he's not angry, but he's just... something inside him is aching. He needed Aerith to tell him who he was, but she wouldn't. And Tifa's always, always had the answers, always been willing to take care of people, so maybe she would--if he could just get her to look at him.
What he does is sit down on the bed at the same moment she does. Their backs bump into each other and she sucks a breath in, jerking back up. "Cloud--"
Barret is giving him a look that promises so much shit if he even breathes on her wrong, but the man soon looks away. Cloud's not sure if it's because Barret knows him better than that now, or if he knows Tifa would kick his ass herself if it needed beating, or if his face is saying too much about how he feels.
It'd be just perfect if his face is saying too much when he can't even get his mouth to work.
"I wanted to talk to you," he murmurs to Tifa.
**
((...Also that is like three different attempts at that scene spliced together just now. So pretty much everything I've done with this fic lately was just "Oh, I think I have an idea. No, I don't know how to make the idea work. Let's try this. Now I'm frustrated. Let's try something else. LET'S GO BACK TO THIS...))
**
Her fingers twitched before clasping around cloud's bicep. "Cloud."
He looked at her with confusion. She knew her request was one that would throw him for a loop.
"Let me go up to Aerith first," she whispered. Because she could protect Aerith too, because she wanted to. She wanted to protect Cloud.
He nodded, though with uncertainty in his eyes, and she strode toward the first pillar and took a short leap up to it. She wondered if originally they'd been closer, or had more pillars in between--they weren't level but slightly crooked beneath her feet, leading to the guess that they'd been disturbed at one point.
And yet, still, she passed with little enough noise. Aerith did not stir one bit, which made Tifa grit her teeth. They had been so worried about her... shouldn't she at least acknowledge them? But the woman continued to keep her head bowed, hands clasped.
...Perhaps, then, she was communicating to someone. Probably the Planet. After sharing dreams with Cloud, Aerith wouldn't exactly be pulling a surprise by communicating to the Planet by prayer. So this was what she'd left them behind for.
A cut-off sound pulled her attention back for just a moment. Cloud had started toward the pillar, only for Barret to immediately grab his shoulder. He wanted to see Aerith, so it shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone...but it seemed to be a surprise to himself. His eyes were a touch wide, mouth working fruitlessly for a second before he closed it and shook his head.
Tifa wasn't sure if she wanted to know, not when they were so close to having Aerith back, so she crossed the final pillar into the threshold of the altar.
Aerith was still in prayer. Tifa wanted to shake her out of it and one hand rose to do that, but she just--couldn't. Aerith had come here to pray, so she needed to do that, obviously. She was the one saving the world, and just watching her... Tifa wasn't sure if it was the angle of her brow or the curve of her shoulders in prayer, but somehow she could see Aerith was pouring her whole heart into that.
Finally, green eyes opened, and Aerith immediately smiled at Tifa. It was the warmth of that gesture and the sure sign of hope behind it--Aerith was done praying and she was happy, it must mean something good--that let the tension ease out of the brawler's muscles, even as she caught herself and resolved that she wanted to tell the other woman how she felt about that little vanishing trick back in Gongaga.
"Aerith, we were so worried--"
In the glass surrounding them, there was a single flicker: a shadow, where there should only have been light.
It was enough for Tifa to shove Aerith back. And that was enough to place her in the path of a blade she recognized all too well when it sliced through her stomach from front to back.
Masamune. Seeing it embedded into her flesh once again felt unreal, but she was already struggling to pull in breath. Not a dream then, not a nightmare.
This...this was something she might never wake up from.
IN CONCLUSION: I think I am pretty much going about this chapter all wrong and am just now contemplating doing the final chapter as a sort of round of sleeping scenes...especially since I for some reason want to write about Aerith in the Sleeping Forest on her own. Even though no one else is with her \o_o/ I have pretty much hit the wall for a while now on knowing what I want to do with this.
Kind of debating just posting the first chapter as its own standalone and leaving the rest, well, alone. I like the idea of the story, it's the telling I can't figure out.
To start off with, HERE IS A BIT I CAN ACTUALLY CONSIDER COMPLETE even if I don't know it'll appear in the final draft of the story. (In fact it almost seems like with a bit of editing it could probably be its own thing as Tifa introspection.)
Cloud tells her, Aerith sent him a dream. That's how he knew she's headed for the City of the Ancients.
It doesn't hurt. Not harshly. The thought just sits there in Tifa's mind, lacking the good grace to know it's long overstayed its welcome.
A dream of peace and a promise. It sounds like something from a fairy tale, a more ethereal romance. It tempts a daydreamer to believe in soulmates—which, to be honest, Tifa never really has before. Cloud was her sweetheart always, her soulmate never. There is a connection, an understanding implied in 'soulmates' that she has never been able to pretend to with the blond, whose blue eyes hide thoughts she can't fathom. Even when they were both kids, he was hard to understand. She remembers that. It's getting harder to remember anything else about their friendship now.
If she had been made to claim anyone on this Planet as her soulmate...she thinks she would have said Aerith, the beautiful woman with hopeful green eyes. They had clicked so quickly, always breaking off from the others to do something together or teaming up when someone stubborn needed convincing, often without words. But--
But Aerith sent Cloud the dream. And for Tifa, there had only been a lie and excuse about why and where she was going out. "Stretching my legs!" Right. Aerith was stretching her legs across two continents.
Tifa understands well enough why she was lied to. Oh, she disagrees with it, but she understands. She would have stopped Aerith, she would have insisted on coming along, and even in the dream (as Cloud says, since she didn't have it) her friend didn't want to be followed. Rationally, it makes sense why Aerith carried things out the way she did, wanting what she did, even if Tifa Lockhart chafes at being kept away. So it doesn't hurt, not harshly.
But it still stings. That she was lied to. That Cloud got a proper explanation in their dream. Heh, "their" dream. If two people can share a dream, they really are connected, aren't they? In a bond that space and distance itself can't stretch out to fray.
Tifa had already known that night in Gold Saucer that she was going to get left behind. Once Aerith had made up her mind to pursue Cloud... Tifa hadn't even been able to choose then, or now, which one she loved more, which one she should confess to, and they'd been drawing ever steadily closer to each other. But to think, she'd been worried about something as ordinary as them kissing, when as it just so happened Aerith could touch Cloud's soul halfway around the world.
Had she ever stood a chance in this little love triangle?
So that's that. And then, backtracking a bit, here is the odds and ends and I swear I just cannot write anything long.
Aerith slept. Tifa didn't, keeping watch over her when she wasn't fretting over Cloud. He was dead to the world; wouldn't wake. But then, it was a near unanimous sentiment to let him take his time on that account. On the other hand Aerith needed to be woken up, every couple of hours, to make sure the concussion wasn't affecting her—it was never easy to tell with those if restorative materia had fully done the job. The smallness of Gongaga's inn meant a short patrol for Tifa as she paced between the two beds opposite each other in the tiny circular room, trying to count down the time and weighing counter impulses between letting Aerith recover from her exhaustion and wanting to make sure she would still wake, as well as to see if she might be able to explain any more of just what had happened in the pit that had been the Temple's foundation. One or two of the other members of their party were always in the inn as well, but the whole nine-man team was simply too big for the establishment, and after some discussion (and arguing, and uncertain looks that had hurt with their aim), they were mostly split up throughout the town. Gathering supplies and trying to figure out their next move, ostensibly.
Playing a waiting game as they wondered if the world might really come to an end.
The first time Aerith was carefully shook awake, she'd immediately spoken Cloud's name as a question, turning her head sharply to try catching sight of him. When she spotted him, the relieved sigh that passed her lips almost hurt to hear. "He's here, yeah," Tifa said needlessly. "We're back in Gongaga."
"He hasn't woken up?"
"No." The concern in Aerith's faint voice was heartening and frustrating all at once. If she was worried for Cloud even now, did she really not blame him? Tifa was glad for that, but she wanted to know why, so everyone could be reassured. …So she could be okay with the fact that Aerith was still bruised and disheveled from an assault that could have killed her, and already forgiving. "Aerith, do you think you can stay awake for a little while? We still don't know what happened down there…what happened to you and Cloud. And the Black Materia is…"
Tifa was already bracing herself as her friend's face grew dark and pinched, upset. The flower girl broke her gaze from their still-sleeping friend to answer: "Sephiroth has it."
A curse floated from the doorway; of course Cid was listening. Vincent surely was too, if more controlled in his reactions. After she'd carried Aerith out of the pit, Barret after her hauling Cloud like a sack of potatoes, Nanaki and Cait Sith had called up that they couldn't find the Black Materia in the pit. Tifa and Barret had each done a quick check of their unconscious passengers, but the materia seemed to have vanished. Immediately the gunman had yelled down demanding if this wasn't another fast one being pulled by Shinra, but Cait Sith was adamant that he'd done nothing fishy in the few minutes he'd been down in the pit—as though Nanaki's sharp eyes and hearing wouldn't have caught him out; they could check him too if they wanted! And it was testament to the tension running through the group that even with everyone aware of how unlikely the possibility was, Vincent actually did check the robot, just to put the nail in that coffin and lay it to rest. The narrow window of circumstance left a short list of suspects, and Sephiroth's name had topped it as the group remembered his strange movements, how he could have slipped past even the most careful watch. Tifa's heart still knotted like a noose to hear it confirmed.
"Then he's going to summon Meteor." And Nanaki's explanation of Sephiroth's plan for that particular spell had been chilling: if there was any truth in it, they were all in big trouble. If it was all true… the world really could come to an end.
"We still have time. He needs the Promised Land…" Aerith drifted off to silence, staring over Tifa's shoulder at what the fighter knew was just the brick wall of the hut; the room's entrance was on her other side.
"Aerith?"
Now she was looking at the door. And then the injured woman was trying to push herself off the bed. Even before her bruises made her stop short with a wince, Tifa was up on her feet, holding one hand out to stop her friend.
"No way. You need to rest."
"But, the Planet—"
"You said we still have time, right? So take a rest. You could tell me what it's saying." Not that Tifa really knew what to make of talking to the Planet; the only spirits she'd ever worked with were the alcoholic kind. But it was evident Aerith had talked to something in the temple…and even if she was the only who could hear it, that didn't mean others couldn't help her do whatever was needed, right?
There was so much tension knotted up in the brawler's limbs. She would have raced out and done just about anything, anything the Planet could ask, if it would fix this situation. If it would guarantee Cloud's eyes opening with clarity and calm, if it would mean Aerith could rest, if it would make everyone safe.
"I… I don't know. It's not clear," the Ancient admitted falteringly, sinking the hope of such a simple fix.
Tifa let out a slow breath. "Then we can't do anything yet. We need some sort of plan."
She had the strength to be firm, especially when the other woman's eyes were still murky with exhaustion; if Aerith wouldn't worry about herself, someone needed to. In the end the woman agreed to lie back down, 'for a little bit', and almost immediately slipped back into sleep. Tifa adjusted the pillow under the woman's head and fretted with the edges of her blanket, as her hands lacked anything better to do.
Cid summed up the situation: "Well, fuck!"
Cloud continued to sleep, and Tifa wondered, as she seemed to have countless times since finding him, what exactly was on his mind. Had he fully realized the trouble they were now in? Was that why had he snapped?
There still wasn't anything they could do, and it was starting to drive her mad.
Hours passed before Aerith was woken up again. The exhaustion in her eyes had turned into sadness. "Everyone's hurting."
That hit a little too close to home with how tense the group was, and Tifa shook her head. "What do you mean?"
"…Screaming…"
Tifa pursed her lips, sitting down by the side of the bed. Obviously her friend hadn't gotten the hoped-for restful sleep. "...Nanaki never heard Cloud scream."
"Ah?" Aerith's eyes flicked up to the ceiling without focusing on it. "...Oh." Her hands clasped gently under her chest, beginning to rise and fall with her breath. She closed her eyes for just a few seconds, and by the time Tifa recognized she might be praying--it was a gesture seen so rarely nowadays--her eyes were already open again. "No. I suppose he wouldn't have."
"I don't get it. What does that even mean? You were just hearing the Planet? But you sounded so sure he was hurt," Tifa blurted out, and almost winced at her pleading. But Aerith probably understood. She was concerned for Cloud too.
"I know what Cloud sounds like," Aerith said. Her voice was firm. "I've been listening, and watching, for him. For a while now. But I didn't know what to make of it."
Paying attention to Cloud? Tifa wasn't surprised, not after that night at the Gold Saucer, but that sting of petty jealousy was so slight at the moment. "Didn't know what to make of it?"
The other woman actually looked timid for a split-second, like she wanted to swallow back the very words she was clearly mulling over. "I thought... you would have said if something was really wrong with Cloud. You know him best of all of us."
For a moment, Tifa didn't react at all, her face slack at the unexpected statement. Aerith saw something wrong with Cloud too? So it wasn't just her... and then her cheeks colored at the implication she should have said something. And what would she have said? All she would have done was cast doubt on Cloud when she wasn't even sure he was the one wrong.
But any anger Tifa felt over the issue was pierced by the reality of where they were and where she'd wanted to be. Aerith herself had been laid up in bed by whatever was wrong with Cloud, and he was unconscious. Everyone was worried, even if they wouldn't show it. Would things be different if she'd said there was something off...? Tifa really had wanted to confide in someone all along. She'd wanted to confide in Aerith, she'd thought about it herself so many times, but the occasion had never been right.
No...she'd just never stopped being scared that the moment she admitted doubt in Cloud, she'd lose him again.
Aerith took in her silence and slowly nodded. "It's all right, Tifa. I could have said something too. It's pretty complicated, I guess... no, I know it is."
**
It was late in the night now since they'd gotten back from the temple. Tifa's body was already tired from travel and the scant sleep from the night before. She tried sitting down but the hard floors of the Gongaga Inn borne from poverty in the village made uncomfortable seating, little chance of resting on them. She found herself staring enviously at the beds. It was...those were the only way she could rest and be by Aerith and Cloud. Surely Aerith would not begrudge sharing the bed, right? Even after thinking it, and convincing herself of the truth of that thought, it still took Tifa a whole ten minutes to creep into the bed. She halted when Aerith's dark green eyes opened at her, but before she could apologize she realized there was no confusion or objection in them.
Aerith's hand lighted on her arm and tugged insistently. Tifa had to shift more and more into the bed, lying down beside her friend who curled in to nestle close. The girl's eyes were already closing again, but still Tifa wrapped one protective arm over her.
"It'll be all right," Tifa said quietly. "We're strong. We can get through this." Words she needed someone to say to her, words she knew Aerith needed to hear herself. It had to hurt, hearing the screams of a Planet. The screams of a friend as he was forced to betray. But Aerith was strong, stronger than her, smiling so often when there was little reason to. And she would shield Aerith, as much as possible.
She curled into Aerith, her head resting against the other girl's collarbone, thinking Aerith must be able to feel the lie of false confidence when she had to resist the urge to cling for dear life.
After a peaceful sleep that was too brief, that resistance failed when she felt the other woman pulling out from beneath her grasp; stuck between Tifa and the wall on each side, Aerith had decided instead to scoot downward along the bed and ease herself off its foot, slipping from beneath Tifa's arm. But Tifa's fingers tightened on her before the woman was fully out. "Aerith? Where are you going?"
"For a walk," Aerith said. "How long have I been asleep? It was much too long."
"No it wasn't. It was only..." Tifa was the one muddled by sleep now; she could tell Aerith how long she'd been asleep before being joined on the bed, but she had no idea of any track of time after that--the windowless state of the room definitely didn't help with that. She was so exhausted, her body's clock thoroughly out of sync, that it could have been morning, midnight, afternoon, how would she know?
She'd see outside. They were going on a walk. She pushed herself upright, trying to blink sleep from her eyes, but before she could swing up onto her feet there was a hand at her shoulder.
"Oh, Tifa. What are you doing?"
"I'll go with..."
"You've been watching over us this whole time, haven't you? You look so exhausted I feel like yawning all over again looking at you. Let yourself rest, Tifa."
Sleep did sound good. Really, really good—especially when the mere mention of yawning was suggestive enough for her traitorous mouth to do just that as soon as she opened it. "D...don't...go far. Everyone's been worried about you."
"I'll be back soon."
Tifa nodded, accepting her friend's word; though rather than lay back down, she dragged a bit of the blanket around her shoulders, feeling its extra warmth from body heat, and tracked Aerith blearily as she passed Yuffie with a smile and a blithe remark about needing to stretch her legs. She...did seem okay on her feet. Direct, not disoriented. So her concussion was truly healed then, a blessed reassurance. And she'd be back soon. Tifa wanted to wait for her to come back, but all too soon exhaustion pulled the caretaker back down into a blank, silent sleep.
"Tifa."
The body heat had dissipated. There was cold metal on her shoulder that made her fidget until realizing it was Vincent's metal claw resting on her, and then she jumped again because Vincent was never inclined to disturb others except for watch duty. "Wha, wha--is it my turn?" Were they taking turns here? She hadn't even thought to ask before.
Vincent ignored the question for the sleep-addled nonsense it was, instead crouching down slightly in front of the bed to meet her eyes. "Did Aerith tell you where she would be?"
"Out for a walk…she should be back soon."
His pale face was impassive. "She told Yuffie the same, but her 'walk' has been nearly four hours now."
Oh, God. She hadn't been well after all; she was probably collapsed in a faint somewhere. "We have to look for her—"
"We began searching two hours ago. She's not in the village," the former Turk summed up precisely, and Tifa felt both foolish and more frightened. Of course the others would have realized before now that something was wrong. Aerith could be easily distracted during her ventures, talk with locals turning "fifteen minutes" into "an hour" when the group was resting somewhere, but she was reliable when things got serious. Right now, they were dire. "We've begun sweeping the jungle… but it seemed prudent to check if she had said any more to you."
"No. She said she'd be right back… I don't understand. What could have happened?" The blanket's fabric became security as Tifa clutched it closer to her shoulders. "…We shouldn't have stopped here. Not after the last time. If Shinra took her—do you think she could have been?"
She was worrying now, openly fretting, and anyone else probably would have told her to calm down. At the moment, she was glad Vincent was the way he was, and willing to consider such possibilities. It still only took him a few seconds to shake his head. "There would have been a struggle. No one has seen or heard any evidence of that. I would say, more than likely… she's left of her own accord. Perhaps she finally made out what the Planet was telling her."
"You believe her, don't you, Vincent?"
"I've seen too much to be skeptical of such a claim." He straightened up. "We'll keep looking."
Tifa gritted her teeth, her hands folding up into fists. Damn it, why had her friend lied to her?! She wouldn't have stopped Aerith from going; she would have gone with, and kept an eye on her... someone else could watch Cloud, he was just sleeping, and he'd probably be okay, he hadn't even been injured, concerning as the assault on Aerith was.
**
When Cloud let out a soft moan, Tifa stopped still in her tracks, turning to him. Barret was also sharp at attention--enough to catch Tifa by the shoulder when the moaning continued and she started to approach Cloud, to wake him from the apparent nightmare.
Remembering what had happened when she'd shared a tent with Cloud near this town, she was glad for Barret's mindfulness. It was much too likely that he'd come back swinging, just as he'd gone out. It was already obvious as his jaw clenched and his fingers twitched that he was struggling against the dream.
"No...no! Come back!"
The next moment, Cloud's eyes opened, and they focused narrowly on Barret and Tifa. Clarity and calm were what she'd hoped would grace his expression, but he was wild-eyed and face twisted up, looking horrified.
He was aware, though. It was apparent by just how quickly his face settled again into something more controlled, even if his eyes still betrayed upset.
"You looked like you was havin' a nightmare," Barret told him. "How are you feeling?"
The first look Cloud gave him could easily have been interpreted as 'no shit', flat as it was. But the question seemed to be the final push he needed to get himself fully back to normal, blinking the last remnants of a restless sleep away: "...I seem to be okay now."
"That's good. For a while there I wasn't sure how things were going."
What were they talking like this for? Tifa knew Cloud, she knew Barret knew him--he wasn't going to spill his heart over a nightmare. "Cloud, Aerith is missing."
So they had to go now. He was awake, he was aware, he was probably shook up about what had happened because they all had been but for god's sake, Aerith was missing. She could be killed. They had to find her straight away.
She wasn't expecting Cloud to actually know where Aerith was.
"...City of the Ancients. Aerith is headed there."
That--sounded familiar, though Tifa couldn't quite place it. The answer sure got Barret in a fury, though, and Tifa immediately guessed: it was far, dangeous, or both. Well, it wasn't like the Temple of the Ancients had been easily accessible either.
"By herself?! Why'd she go by herself? Hey, we're going, too."
"Only the Ancients, only Aerith can save us from Meteor..."
"Then we MUST go," Tifa said, growing nervous. Cloud didn't sound like himself. Because really, any time Aerith was in danger or doing something that might be dangerous, he was there to be overly sensible. Sometimes annoyingly so, depending on how he phrased his objection. "What'll we do if something happens to Aerith? If Sephiroth finds her, she's in trouble."
Cloud didn't exactly freeze on the bed; he hadn't been moving in the first place. But movement became even more unlikely in that moment, with his eyes staying fastened toward the ground. "Sephiroth... already knows."
"Hey! Why are you still sitting around?" Barret demanded.
Exactly what Tifa had wanted to say, so she didn't reiterate it, upset as she was. They just needed to get moving. Before Aerith was taken from them. "Let's go, Cloud."
Something inside her crumpled when he did, folding in on himself on the bed and cradling his head like it could break. "No… I'm afraid. If this keeps up, I might go crazy! I'm afraid…"
Afraid he might be the one to hurt her? Was he really that unstable?
**
The point where it gets EVEN MESSIER TO READ because haha writing:
Cloud wanted to be by Tifa, as much as he wanted to be by anyone at all. He still didn't have a good explanation for his actions in the pit of the once Temple and it scared him. He'd wanted Aerith to--tell me who I am--but she hadn't, couldn't. She had to go save the world. That sense of goodness that radiated from her eyes, like they were reflecting something only she could perceive in him, quickly vanished. It had felt like there was no way he could do anything for her.
Tifa and Barret had quickly raged at him, promises of knocks upside the head and quiet pleas that they must go save Aerith getting him back up on his feet, and once there... yeah, he was annoyed with himself too. He had been a SOLDIER. He wasn't going to fail her by doing nothing.
Still...it...scared him, the moment the world had slipped out of focus and he had practically been outside his body, watching himself hand over the materia. He'd screamed at himself, tried to hold his own body back, but in the end nothing had worked; the materia had been handed over to Sephiroth.
And then... then...
He'd beaten Aerith. Tifa had told him, with a pinched, unhappy face, that that was the reason he now had jagged claw marks over the back of his left shoulder: he'd been beating Aerith, and after Nanaki had failed to get any response by yelling at him the feline had pounced on him to bring him to the ground.
Cloud barely remembered any yelling under the heavy tinnitus ringing not in his ears but in his head; but Tifa was honest. So the only thing to do had been thank Nanaki--quickly, without fuss, but it needed to be said.
'You did the right thing. If I'm a threat, take me out.'
Nanaki's actions, Barret's words...yes, he knew he could trust in his party if he went wild. But...
But he wasn't really sure...if a second time would find him coming back to normal. It felt like he was unraveling, and badly. It scared him. Like he was weaving offstep--he just didn't want to go crazy like that again.
So...so he was gravitating to Tifa. Even though she was looking away from him. It's because he's letting down her best friend. He understands that, so he's not angry, but he's just... something inside him is aching. He needed Aerith to tell him who he was, but she wouldn't. And Tifa's always, always had the answers, always been willing to take care of people, so maybe she would--if he could just get her to look at him.
What he does is sit down on the bed at the same moment she does. Their backs bump into each other and she sucks a breath in, jerking back up. "Cloud--"
Barret is giving him a look that promises so much shit if he even breathes on her wrong, but the man soon looks away. Cloud's not sure if it's because Barret knows him better than that now, or if he knows Tifa would kick his ass herself if it needed beating, or if his face is saying too much about how he feels.
It'd be just perfect if his face is saying too much when he can't even get his mouth to work.
"I wanted to talk to you," he murmurs to Tifa.
**
((...Also that is like three different attempts at that scene spliced together just now. So pretty much everything I've done with this fic lately was just "Oh, I think I have an idea. No, I don't know how to make the idea work. Let's try this. Now I'm frustrated. Let's try something else. LET'S GO BACK TO THIS...))
**
Her fingers twitched before clasping around cloud's bicep. "Cloud."
He looked at her with confusion. She knew her request was one that would throw him for a loop.
"Let me go up to Aerith first," she whispered. Because she could protect Aerith too, because she wanted to. She wanted to protect Cloud.
He nodded, though with uncertainty in his eyes, and she strode toward the first pillar and took a short leap up to it. She wondered if originally they'd been closer, or had more pillars in between--they weren't level but slightly crooked beneath her feet, leading to the guess that they'd been disturbed at one point.
And yet, still, she passed with little enough noise. Aerith did not stir one bit, which made Tifa grit her teeth. They had been so worried about her... shouldn't she at least acknowledge them? But the woman continued to keep her head bowed, hands clasped.
...Perhaps, then, she was communicating to someone. Probably the Planet. After sharing dreams with Cloud, Aerith wouldn't exactly be pulling a surprise by communicating to the Planet by prayer. So this was what she'd left them behind for.
A cut-off sound pulled her attention back for just a moment. Cloud had started toward the pillar, only for Barret to immediately grab his shoulder. He wanted to see Aerith, so it shouldn't have been a surprise to anyone...but it seemed to be a surprise to himself. His eyes were a touch wide, mouth working fruitlessly for a second before he closed it and shook his head.
Tifa wasn't sure if she wanted to know, not when they were so close to having Aerith back, so she crossed the final pillar into the threshold of the altar.
Aerith was still in prayer. Tifa wanted to shake her out of it and one hand rose to do that, but she just--couldn't. Aerith had come here to pray, so she needed to do that, obviously. She was the one saving the world, and just watching her... Tifa wasn't sure if it was the angle of her brow or the curve of her shoulders in prayer, but somehow she could see Aerith was pouring her whole heart into that.
Finally, green eyes opened, and Aerith immediately smiled at Tifa. It was the warmth of that gesture and the sure sign of hope behind it--Aerith was done praying and she was happy, it must mean something good--that let the tension ease out of the brawler's muscles, even as she caught herself and resolved that she wanted to tell the other woman how she felt about that little vanishing trick back in Gongaga.
"Aerith, we were so worried--"
In the glass surrounding them, there was a single flicker: a shadow, where there should only have been light.
It was enough for Tifa to shove Aerith back. And that was enough to place her in the path of a blade she recognized all too well when it sliced through her stomach from front to back.
Masamune. Seeing it embedded into her flesh once again felt unreal, but she was already struggling to pull in breath. Not a dream then, not a nightmare.
This...this was something she might never wake up from.
IN CONCLUSION: I think I am pretty much going about this chapter all wrong and am just now contemplating doing the final chapter as a sort of round of sleeping scenes...especially since I for some reason want to write about Aerith in the Sleeping Forest on her own. Even though no one else is with her \o_o/ I have pretty much hit the wall for a while now on knowing what I want to do with this.
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-08-23 09:12 pm (UTC)Oof; yeah the insistence that the term "girlfriend" doesn't necessarily mean the same thing in Japanese really doesn't ring true given the other in-game/in book uses of the same phrase, and yeah given its a loan word as well it feels to me that it would only have one reading; this isn't a kanji which can be read different ways depending on context - loan words as far as I understood it are pretty ubambiguous. And yeah there is so much authority in some of these arguments but no sources/back up for what they're claiming - but yes, it is what people want to hear so they're parroting it/going along with it. The LTD is reeeeeally dumb. And yeah, it is a tad hypocritical that Danseru criticized people like that when the TLS clearly has altered a word due to the connotations attached.
And so very true! Actually the whole note about Aeris being the only one Zack's conversation can be referencing is tied up in my other gripes about the current LTD, CC and the Compilation in general. I keep seeing these long posts about how wonderful Zack/Aeris is and so much seems to centre around Aeris wearing the ribbon, wearing pink, selling her flowers - and this is so often taken as proof of how strong the relationship is. I'm not going to knock Zack/Aeris as a pair (but still maintain the stance that CC is not the relationship that VII implied), but those claims always niggle me for much the same reasons as that post we both reblogged a while back accusing the FFVII cast of being jerks - the holding up VII as the sequel to CC rather then CC changing the reasoning behind aspects of VII, and in several cases failing to cleanly integrate. It's just that the proof in so many of these essays is retconned in and it bothers me as it keeps getting treated like it was always the plan, when by every account its a huge alteration to Aeris's character and so much of how we originally met here is now wholesale attributed to Zack for no real good reason. Little bit ranty there. But yeah the truck scene was written and produced at a time without Cissnei, without the other female Turk and without the secretary - there was no other girl to refer to. Aeris only assumed he cheated on her, and just saying that Zack loved women never explicitly suggests he cheated on her either.
Ah, I'd forgotten about the secretary flirting, but yeah I would place that prior to meeting Aeris as well when every woman Zack talked to thought he was hitting on them. Plus... the idea that Zack would cheat on Aeris feels like a bizarre thing for CC to suggest or even hint at given how moral he is through the game and how he wants to do the right thing. Difficult to see that Zack even contemplating cheating (OGC is more of a blank-slate, but as you noted so long ago, the idea of Aeris dating a jerk just doesn't sit right). And even playing devil's advocate and saying maybe he had more then one girlfriend (for which the evidence is lacking), it might not be typically acceptable, but there's no doubt that Zack loves Aeris in CC.
I never did really like the Ultimanias as a canon source, and after the information you've turned up I feel better about ignoring them now (it does kind of explain the weird time-line as well to some extent). Plus as you said at one point, all this reliance on non-officially translated text feels iffy anyway (and lead to the koibito arguments. What amused me about that was for the Reunion Files there is for a change an official english translation for the phrase and they chose sweetheart).
SA does "ship" Zack/Tifa. It came up a while back in conjunction with the Emperor/Empress matching outfits; she was claiming SE clearly paired them up as they're both in school uniforms. It feels a decidedly weak argument (in an unrelated game with out of game clothing. And is... effectively the *sole* implication at that pairing. CC doesn't even vaguely hint at it). And "shipping" the couple feels a rather strong term given the vitriol I've seen directed at both of them (and I think any explanation from this is going to expose its an attack on another pairing seen as unfavourable. Or at least its amazingly difficult to see shipping is possible with character hate. It goes back to that point you made a while back; its easy to see not caring for a character unless they're paired with someone else/they bring the best out in each other, but to repeatedly and forcibly state a hatred and then to safely dispose of the spared characters like that doesn't feel genuine). Ah, I saw your ask, and yeah I do have to wonder if it was one of the more vocal anti-Zack/Aeris group. "Trauma" indeed. I think the fandom has to start ignoring those books as evidence - even if they were translated into English, people would be obsessing over the translation differences, and since the authorship is so questionable...
Fair point; Zidane/Garnet is much cleaner in romance terms/doesn't contend with characterization issues with an additional game/that strange bashing of Aeris for daring to move on. I really do like when you highlight this to people; not only has it been five years, Aeris has heard nothing from her boyfriend - its up to her if she wants to move on. I get the feeling at times that the fandom just doesn't ever want ambiguity; they want the relationships completely and rigidly clear-cut - it's Zack/Aeris and Tifa/Cloud (well or Zack/Cissnei and Cloud/Aeris from the other direction) with no questions, no doubts, no changes in feelings, no temptations etc. And indeed Zidane does completely tail off on flirting from what I rememebr, while Zack does somewhat sillily have some moments with Cissnei later on. And as you say the Ultminia is just fanning the flames...
True, it is interesting to explore the negative mindset like that; I think I've just run into it a few too many times with the losing all hope before someone insists their new memories can't be anything other then their own. So as long as it doesn't go on too long... But yeah, it is interesting to suddenly call into question everything Cloud ever knew/remembered like that. In small does. And oh Cloud from your example.
Yeah, I like the style of the teal one too; sort of half-way between a Tolkien-esque journal and a modern diary.
(sorry if this got a bit ranty in places)
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-08-25 12:41 pm (UTC)No haha I completely agree on the Aerith/game order rant--I so dislike that it attributes so much of her character to him (she was wearing ribbons before meeting him!) Like, it is sweet in a way, and I actually have included it in my rp/fic at times. But along with how she's portrayed in CC it just comes off as promoting Zack without caring about the already established characters, at least in Cloud and Aerith's cases.
Plus... the idea that Zack would cheat on Aeris feels like a bizarre thing for CC to suggest or even hint at given how moral he is through the game and how he wants to do the right thing.
Haha, pretty much. I still like the idea for OGC that Zack is just being pragmatic and frayed and having bigger priorities--he doesn't know Aerith still loves him, he just knows it's been five years so yeesh she's probably found someone new, plus even though he's cheerful with Cloud it always seems Zack should have some emotional/mental/just flat out stress issues himself after four years of captivity and Hojo so it's just. ROMANCE? haha ha ha ha, he thinks, let's just get to a place where me and Cloud can rest for a week without having to worry about being recaptured or dying and then the romance thing can be revisited. (To be honest my favorite Zack fics/rpers as a rule account for the fact that Zack probably wasn't getting through that series of events without a few serious mental cracks himself, though he managed to keep himself together enough to keep moving.) Other interpretations are perfectly possible, but that's the one I like. (and then they scrapped that anyway with CC and making getting to Midgar ALL ABOUT being with Aerith again.)
Haha, I had the same thought about the timeline a few days ago--"Oh wait! This means I can safely ignore it now!" OH HAPPY DAY because yeah, the timeline is kind of. ???
Oh yeah lmfao the matching outfits thing. I'm kind of wondering if SA was trying to be sarcastic and flopped, but that's giving too much credit (it was certainly not sarcasm in the case of Cloud and Aerith). And yeah, as far as we know Tifa doesn't have any concern about Zack at all beyond knowing he was the SOLDIER at Nibelheim. SORRY MAN YOU MADE NO IMPRESSION ON HER (which. then makes it even more annoying that SE thought he needed to influence something of hers, too. WTF is he naming the bar for.) And yeah, ignoring the books (and bizarro hate shipping) sounds good.
I do feel like the fandom hates ambiguity, especially given the reactions to the Zack as possibly cheating thing (I still just find the insistence on reduction to "female friends" really odd, and something about the logic of the response in one person's post had me headscratching a bit... not sure).
I think what I like about cases where all hope is lost is what they seeing they decide to do. I mean, if Cloud just flops over and mopes for himself, that's going to be annoying. But we were talking once about an AU where Cloud is a copy, but he meets the "real" Cloud and tries to get him to help the others and tries to help himself from a distance (because in his mind, they only want the "real" Cloud)...and that would be interesting to me too. Or really any where Cloud finds this out and reacts in a strong, believable way, even if it's entirely negative (which is essentially what the fic with him absorbing Tifa's consciousness is). It just needs a reaction at some point. Which--lol Cloud in my example has actually been put off from that at the moment. What made me laugh was the Zack player is someone I talk to on plurk and they read my Cloud's reaction to realizing Zack didn't know about Aerith or anything like that and their comment was "As soon as he alludes to any of that aloud he's getting punched in the back of the head" because, well obviously Zack wouldn't do the literal punch (probably. Barret would) but he'd just be SO UNHAPPY with Cloud's logic. But Zack's reaction to Cloud getting obviously uneasy was to understandably insist that whatever was bugging him wasn't something he needed to worry about, they were lucky enough to see each other again so they should focus on that so now Cloud's on BE HAPPY, DAMMIT. I'm really just amused by Cloud tying himself up in weird emotional knots. ...And then they totally got sidetracked by Cloud referencing "the kids" and Zack being all holy crap did Cloud make babies the moment I wasn't looking so yes. The thread's a bit jump-y because I'm rusty, but I'm having fun with it so far. As you can tell by my rambling.
(and hey, not to worry about the ranty ranty--I was/have been like that myself through the last few comments, so. XD)
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-08-25 04:31 pm (UTC)Ack! The ribbon! I keep remembering this and then forgetting/failing to mention it. The ribbon aspect really annoys me; everyone seems to conveniently overlook Aeris is clearly wearing a very similar ribbon aged seven. It seems unlikely this can be the same ribbon she normally wears, but its enough to suggest that she likes wearing a ribbon in her hair and has done for years. CC's presentation of Zack buying it for her gives the impression this is a new thing for her and she wouldn't have done so without meeting him. What also kills me is that this moment could have gelled *so easily* with VII with a tiny bit of dialogue:
Zack hands over ribbon
Aeris: Thank you! It's just like the one my mother gave me.
And all would be fine; Zack can give her a ribbon but its importance is diminished/its a replacement for something she has lost/misplaced/is too worn to use anymore. And I agree it would be a sweet aspect to the game if it wasn't contradicting the spirit of the original game (as must be grudgingly admitted in most cases there's nothing to contradict elements of CC per se, it just ramps up the implausibility that they have been forgotten about), and I can see the appeal of using it. But as you say, its all for the purposes of promoting Zack rather then giving more insight into Aeris and as a result she loses character (despite a lot of vehement defenses that Aeris makes it through CC unscathed. Fearful of the sky rarely gets mentioned here) as so much is sourced from Zack. I kind of wanted to write a retort post demanding explanations for every other character's costume - sure we know how Cloud (which was pragmatism again) and Aeris's have been derived, so why don't we know about Tifa's or the others? But then that would get kinda fraught very quickly since the answer in almost every other case is its logical remnants of their pasts/totally unknown, so I'll refrain from that.
I full endorse the Zack being pragmatic in the OGC. It has a right feeling to it that he can't believe she could have waited all that time. It'd be nice, it'd be a huge confidence boost to him, but she's a real person and vanishing for five years is unlikely to paint him in the best light. So she would have moved on by now. And that is a good point he likely would have some issues after what he's just been through (it... is a little unbelievable that Zack does seemingly suffer everything with no ill-effects. I think Scribbler came the closest to having Zack actually start crumbling, but even then Aeris was able to help him. But he's usually shown to be completely mentally balanced and unaffected by the process. I get the impression there are others I just haven't run across them yet). And indeed! Worrying about romance isn't going to high on his priority list; get hidden, get Cloud safe/preferably back on his feed, not die. The romance thing is very much for later... I would concur that Zack damaged by the process feels much more righter or at least more realistic (and perfectly in line with OGC since there are so many gaps. CC doesn't lend itself as well).
Haha! Yeah, I was ignoring the timeline anyway, but its nice to hear its safe to as well. And yeah, it was just bafflingly weird (and I wonder if some of the fandom latched onto it as it makes age calculations much easier for AC and DoC and post-game fics...)
I'd agree I think that would be too much credit with SA (and its still the claim she shipped them as SE clearly intended. Despite hating the characters). And very true, Zack made no impression on Tifa at all (I admit to there being a kind of appeal to Zack/Tifa, but its a pseudo-crack pairing - they at least met/talked to each other; even if all romantic aspects require invention), and yeah it was frustrating to have Zack influence the Seventh Heaven naming as well. As a friend commented to me (he's more aggressively dismissive of anything past the original game), the problem with CC's portrayal of Zack is that he's so well known and so influential that his disappearance and complete non-mention after that are really, really odd. Haha - oh yeah, ignoring all the books (even the Case ofs since they have niggles, Maiden is nice but keeps getting dragged out as a crutch which is certainly not why it was written and the Ultimanias... enough said) and the hate shipping is stressful.
Yeah the insistence of reduction to female friends is odd; is it not enough that the idea Zack could cheat is unacceptable, but the idea that he dated someone else is as well? And actually that might feed into some of the dismissal of Cloud/Aeris. I only heard about it but for "Kannagi" I think, some fans were incensed when the manga suggested that the female lead had had another boyfriend in the past (to the extent they stopped reading/destroyed all copies of the book/anime they had) - and I'm just wondering if something similar (if much more low-key) is happening to Zack and Aeris to some fans; its unacceptable that Zack could have dated anyone before Aeris as she's his true love, and its unacceptable Aeris could move on from Zack because he's her true love. Which would be uncomfortable but mostly understandable in some romance affair, but feels really alien in FFVII. And I do still read people saying that Aeris is still getting over Zack in VII, which feels a remarkably long time to do so; five years with no contact for a relationship which was never depicted as especially intense (I do get the sense I overlook emotional intensity as that also seems to be a main-stay of the CC defenders, but it feels off for the relationship to be apparently that strong when Aeris and Zack haven't even kissed, let alone been especially intimate by all canon accounts. There is a lot of repetition that they can be passionate without much physical contact/sex and its also regularly applied to Cloud and Tifa as well. It has a kind of invented feel to it, this passion/feelings we can't directly see or have conveyed to us are vital to arguments - and soooo much of that is right out of the Ultimanias as well!).
Ah! Yeah, all too often I see a protagonist flop and mope when confronted with their fake memories before needing an external agent to drag them back up/tell them it doesn't matter and they get back into their groove (see also romance plot-lines where the protagonist hears *exactly* the wrong part or the wrong conversation, jumps to a conclusion and goes off to sulk. I just want to reach through the screen and shake these characters every single time for never attempting to discuss things). But the strong, believable action sounds a lot more appealing - whichever way it pans out. Ah! I remember that AU idea, and that was really neat idea - and yeah convincing himself they want the "real" Cloud rather then him. (It reminds me of the The Simpsons amusingly; when the real Principal Skinner returns and the fake one steps aside thinking its for the best - until the town rebels and reinstates him as they want the person who's been living there all these years and they know rather then the nebulous real Skinner).
Haha; the RP was fun to read, and I do like the way the kids distracted everything (I can see Zack feeling kind of proud of Cloud for having fathered some children). And yeah, Cloud does do emotional knots so very easily... And can definitely see Zack being unhappy with Cloud's logic like that.
Hehe - not to worry, I've used the wrong word so many times! (at least it made sense to me you meant comments when you said comics. Not like when I transposed "not" and "now" to really confuse a sentence)
And yeah, we have been ranting a fair bit; its just it is frustrating to see elements of the original game dismissed so readily in favour of one of the Compilation entries, or all the reliance on the books... It must be said though, the FFVII fandom does seem (for the most part. There is the occasional flare-up, but still nothing as involved) kind of tame to the past Harry Potter fandom; I got sidelined last night reading an exhaustive account of a shipper using multiple accounts to variously promote/attack herself to ingratiate into the fandom/quite how messy the pairing situations were at times with the Harry/Ginny, Hermione/Harry or Hermione/Ron lot in various configurations of acceptability in each other's eyes (it was actually interesting to read that Harry/Ginny was a think seemingly a fair way before the books brought it in - and it was dismissed by many as not going to happen...).
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-08-26 04:35 pm (UTC)And the fear of the sky was ridiculous, and it's not helped by the fact that CC does nothing to 1) explain where it's from or 2) show it being overcome by Aerith. It's just lazy writing about it being resolved (we only know it is because of original game) and it's just. argh. And sadly it's probably better they didn't show it being resolved because it would have been about ~how Zack influenced Aerith~ again /shoves him off a cliff look he's a SOLDIER he can survive that
To be honest though I just really like Aerith so I hate people trying to make all her traits from other people. Like there was a Tseng roleplayer who wanted Tseng to have essentially manipulated her into learning how to use a staff (because he wanted her to protect herself and he knew she wouldn't take it directly from him) and it's like OH SCREW THAT did everyone forget about her being street smart in the original game? She learned how to use a staff because she knew she could find herself in trouble. My sole concession to compilation in this case is that, going with CC leaving that wolf Angeal-copy with her, she first started practicing with him watching over her and he did sometimes help her out when she got in over her head actually now I'm amused at the mental image of him divebombing Reno or Tseng or both at least once to make them stop bothering her. But it's just. Argh. Like she wouldn't figure it out if it was from Tseng?? Like she couldn't have thought on her own "Hey, I keep finding myself in trouble, I want to be able to keep myself safe"? /ranty
(it... is a little unbelievable that Zack does seemingly suffer everything with no ill-effects. I think Scribbler came the closest to having Zack actually start crumbling, but even then Aeris was able to help him. But he's usually shown to be completely mentally balanced and unaffected by the process. I get the impression there are others I just haven't run across them yet)
I think this might be more a thing in LJ/DWRP, or that it might be the way it pops up in fics it's not really registering as a serious issue? Like in the rp with Zack/Cloud/Aerith Zack was, most of the time, the level-headed and emotionally open one. Cloud was the problem child, and Aerith caused one or two incidents with the guys wanting to protect her and her trying to protect THEM by outright cutting them out of the loop, and Zack was pretty much the one who teamed up with whichever of them was still being reasonable to either cajole the current drama queen into calming down or scold them or--whatever was going on, he pretty much got set on fixing it. But he did have incidents where he got weird; there was at least one time he got so upset remembering something from the labs that he outright left for the bar because he couldn't talk to Cloud about it at all (I'm pretty sure there were others too, but some of this was before I started with Aerith/a long time ago anyway), and toward the end of my run (so sadly this issue did not quite get resolved, I wasn't sure how to proceed in it) he was affected by an event of the roleplay that caused people to have hallucinations and he outright broke things like walls when he was made to hallucinate being trapped in the labs again. Once he snapped out of it he went straight back to peppy and cheerful, sheepishly laughing off the incident...until Cloud called him out on hiding his feelings with a smile, and then he snapped at Cloud. And there was a long conversation with all of this and toward the end Cloud realized that with Zack being so dead set on protecting him from his memories of the labs, he wouldn't be able to get him to open up on this, so Cloud discreetly asked Aerith to help Zack because they were both really worried about how strong Zack's reaction had been and that Zack was basically not allowing himself to be upset about things that he had good reason to be upset about (and Aerith did try to get him to open up at least one time after this, but... :/ well, I flopped in rp activity a short while after). And I know other players played it in a way like this too; like, honestly, I remember player commentary on the state of Zack's mind post-labs because it usually came off as funny in a sad way (player commentary: "Oh right Zack you just go sleep off years of mental/emotional/physical abuse" "are you saying his tried-and-true method hasn't worked and kept him sane all this time, HMMM" "Zack's not sane. He's just not destructive in his insanity." "...Point." Or like in another game the FFVII crew was looking at the Ultimania timeline which gives nine months for Zack and Cloud being on the run, which I actually think is pretty reasonable, but they found weird compared to the game timeline (also understandable), but also just. Given that length of time, they pretty much agreed that Zack was the BEST NURSE EVER and MOST AWESOME FRIEND for believing Cloud could hear him that entire time, and also probably a little off-kilter and emotionally dependent on Cloud's survival and would have fallen apart if Cloud had died, which is the premise of at least one fic floating around out there...). Like, I wouldn't expect Zack to flip out the same way Sephiroth or Dyne, violently, or even the way Cloud does, denying everything (although actually, I'd probably be willing to buy him having some kind of break from reality in a fic if even more stuff happened). But I can definitely see him having emotional issues and just plain being worn ragged and clinging to a smile even when he should be able to admit that nothing is okay at the moment.
There have been some fic/rp takes that go too far to the dysfunctional extreme with it (again, he DID get himself and Cloud across continents--there was an RP Zack who literally would lose himself in memories and sit in acid rain and that was just "uh...") but I do think CC's take on it is really idealized too/skims over possibilities that might have been interesting.
Well, I think your friend is pretty right with the HOW IMPORTANT IS ZACK thing. I was actually thinking about the Zack/Tifa last night and it being pretty much crack because what was supposed to attract them to each other? and remembered that I have seen serious arguments for it but they're usually...anti-Cloud/Tifa and vaguely anti-Tifa OR anti-Cloud for their reasoning... which is that given her desire for a SOLDIER to protect her and her seeming most impressed with the SOLDIER!Cloud (from some conversations, like her being proud of him for getting in), Zack would be what she really wants (which...ignores the fact that she's okay with Cloud as he really is) and would be best for her given her frustrations with Cloud (...CoT did not really help there). So then this usually comes off as putting down either Cloud or Tifa, either Cloud for not meeting her expectations or vaguely Tifa for having unrealistic expectations that fit only a really idealized person (with this take usually also painting Zack as something of a Gary Stu). And... yeah. Zack/Tifa is occasionally fun as "these two look hot together" but trying to make it work in the canon pretty much just leads to sketchiness as far as I've seen.
heoih I don't even like Maiden I get so annoyed at the "thoughtlessly selling flowers" line orz
And I do still read people saying that Aeris is still getting over Zack in VII, which feels a remarkably long time to do so; five years with no contact for a relationship which was never depicted as especially intense (I do get the sense I overlook emotional intensity as that also seems to be a main-stay of the CC defenders, but it feels off for the relationship to be apparently that strong when Aeris and Zack haven't even kissed, let alone been especially intimate by all canon accounts. There is a lot of repetition that they can be passionate without much physical contact/sex and its also regularly applied to Cloud and Tifa as well. It has a kind of invented feel to it, this passion/feelings we can't directly see or have conveyed to us are vital to arguments - and soooo much of that is right out of the Ultimanias as well!).
I HAVE TO ADMIT I was a little confused when I first read this because I've been pretty much reading the Cloud/Aerith sex fic as Aerith still getting over Zack? Although you're probably talking about the intensity off her feelings about Zack/how much progress she does/doesn't make in getting over him--because I do think she is getting over him myself, but I also think it's not so much the end of the relationship itself as that, going by Crisis Core's ending/the parallel of Elmyra's husband coming back to see her and dying and Aerith hearing this in OGC, she heard Zack die and she still cared about him so that was a big shock for her (especially if as in CC he'd hoped to see her and she heard that). But saying she didn't get over him at all so can't love Cloud is my "lol NOPE" point.
It is kind of weird though that for how strong Zack/Aerith or Cloud/Tifa or heck, even Cloud/Aerith is supposed to be, we...don't really see intimacy between them. Cloud and Tifa have a clear distance in the children's room the whole time, their only contact is when Cloud is holding her protectively or she's helping him get to Bahamut (which, yay, team-building exercise). Then Cloud/Aerith is similar, he holds her protectively (or to bury her :( ) and getting to Bahamut
but hey they also have the moment of standing back to back and her touching his arm. yes I do like that.Both Cloud/Aerith and Cloud/Tifa in the original game has moments of them leaning by/sitting close to Cloud. And then Zack/Aerith probably has the most touching going on (Zack tying Aerith's ribbon, her playfully shoving him, the hug after Angeal's death) but even that's like... okay two of these examples are from before them going steady and the third is an example of comfort and yeah it is really hard to think of anything that is just WE ARE TOUCHING EACH OTHER BECAUSE WE WANT TO TOUCH EACH OTHER ~IN LOVE~. Except the girls' original game gestures and that is hilarious considering they were all blocky legos then....I have not seen enough of the Simpsons, I never realized there was a fake Skinner/real Skinner thing going on. XD
I definitely think the FFVII fandom has had more TIME to calm down, both fandoms are about the same age but Harry Potter's built up through subsequent releases while Compilation was a bit more rocky (no new English releases until AC in 200...5, I think? flops in the form of Dirge, not nearly as many things going on, broken fanbase) so I think part of it is the LTD not being as vehement. But also probably that, yeah, while Cloud has a lot of potential ships it's only ever been two warring for 'legitimacy', meanwhile Harry people got plenty ideas about different things of how they thought he'd end up... Also Harry/Ginny was really suggested in the first book Ginny appeared in; she had a massive crush on him. It's just that Harry didn't come to reciprocate until late on, but I don't think it's surprising that some people would have been shipping it in since the Chamber of Secrets (and then they were probably feeling very smug by the end...)
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-08-26 06:23 pm (UTC)Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-08-26 06:56 pm (UTC)I'll admit, I do worry slightly for what KH3 is going to pull with the whole Cloud/Zack/Aeris/Tifa situation given what's happened in the Compilation, but hopefully they'll remember as you say that the two universes are separate and not meant to influence each other that directly. And so very agree; she wears pink as its her style, its her choice, its what she wants. And that style was kept between VII and KH just as everyone else's was (and then things went a bit odd for Aeris). Oh! And good catch with the ribbons as a memento of Aeris now being odder in that they trace directly back to Zack (clearly not AC's intent, so its very safe to assume that that aspect of CC hadn't been conceived when the film came out). And yep! She's moving on in VII, and to do that the expectation might be to ditch the dress that he asked for, leave the ribbon behind, be entirely her own person. I do remember you using the dress as part of the promise - and I didn't object to how you did that either; I like the wearing pink due to the promise but continuing as she's gotten used to it rather then adhering to those conditions day in day out (...plus its not as if Zack actually asked her to wear pink all the time. I think it was just on their next date).
Ah, I forgot she chose the colour of the ribbon in CC; that's something at least, but yeah, still frustrating in how the scenario has been engineered. And yeah! Why can't Aeris tie the ribbon herself?! Argh! The fear of the sky really did use to be my number one bit of evidence for problems with CC; as much as I didn't like meeting Zack as Aeris did, or the ribbon or the dress or the selling flowers, those at least tried to mesh with VII. Badly, awkardly, but they could be made to fit as long as you were willing to accept CC overwriting VII (I gave up trying to debate this with Danseru as she really has seemingly no issues with retcons ever - while they forever annoy me. I think one of my biggest objections is I can never see how they occur; its not as if the end point wasn't known in advance, and failing to meet it correctly just feels like laziness). But the sky? Yeah, its been resolved somewhere, somehow, undepicted, unseen and unfelt. Though you're right, better we not see it then have a moment of Zack taking Aeris to the upper plates or out of the city.
*joins in the pushing. Yep; he can survive it! Wait, there are two Zacks here. *eyes the VII!Zack, versus the CC!Zack* * Poor VII!Zack, no one seems to want to write for him anymore (it is admittedly harder to do)
I think we're in agreement; I really like Aeris and I am *so* ticked off with people trying to give her traits from the rest of the cast in any form. It's just... why is she singled out? There are spots of influences from other characters, but for some reason Aeris keeps coming across as a blank slate in some people's hands and she needs everything about her set by an external agency. The Tseng roleplayer there sounds frustrating as well. It feels that no one seems to get Aeris for some reason. Everyone overlooks that she can use her staff to attack things. She's not a wonderful physical attack character, but dammit, she tries to clobber things. And there's a prevailing notion that the Turks are intercepting all dangers before they can do her any injury which then doesn't match with her able to use her staff - as you say - because she knows she could find herself in trouble. And what's more troubling is while the fanbase seems determined to paint Aeris as the innocent, virgin sacrifice due to some concerted mis-remembering/misinterpretation, SE themselves didn't exactly make an effort to set the record straight - AC is okay but her role is limited and she's super-powerful and ethereal, but CC did nothing to dismiss the notions)
...I do like the wolf Angeal-copy divebombing Reno or Tseng like that! But yes; as with so much else of Aeris's character, I don't understand why she can't have these thoughts herself, choose to do things herself. And its this kind of stuff that does niggle when CC gets praised for its emotional depth and expansion of the story, and people claiming it doesn't damage Aeris's character. Though; it must be said I usually hear that claim from Zack/Aeris or Cloud/Tifa shippers which despite any protests of impartiality makes me highly suspicious of that conclusion.
(end rant. At least we're able to talk it over and get it out of our systems. This kind of discussion on Tumblr is not exaclty going to be terribly amicable/not be filled with flowing endorsements of CC)
Unfortunately don't have a lot of comments on the roleplay scenario, but thank you for sharing it as these are always interesting reads/different insights into characters like that - and I can definitely see Zack and the level-headed/emotionally open one of the group for the most part, but the moments of weirdness sound unnerving and a little chilling in the implications/what Zack has sacrificed for Cloud in that way. And yeah I can definitely see the situation sadly funny; the non-destructive insanity or Zack being the best nurse/most awesome friend to Cloud - but that really works that he could have become so dependent on Cloud's survival that if he hadn't made it he would have collapsed - I think I have seen that on synopsis for a few fics, but haven't read those yet.
(Amused at the group's issue with the timeline - and I would agree; 9 months sounds fine for them being on the run, but is vastly too long for the game's timeline to feel right).
Yike; yeah that does sound like a dysfunctional extreme with the acid rain. (...Zack? Really?). Ah CC. So many problems.
Haha - yeah I agree with my friend too, I just know there are many who don't see it that way. And its an interesting note about the Zack/Tifa thing - it is seemingly based on them being attractive and otherwise unattached if Cloud/Aeris forms up (this reminds me very much of a comedy fic set in FFVIII - there's an event and Selphie is trying to find Quistis a date and her first suggestion is Seifer which gets shot down as Quistis notes she's only suggesting him as he's the only non-gay younger single male in the cast list at this stage (by this stage both Nida and Rajin had turned out to be gay as well, and Quistis herself later got into a relationship with Xu). Selphie reluctantly admits that was the entire logic behind the suggestion). Ack; anti any other pairing will always feel a terrible basis for a pairing. I have read that desire for the SOLDIER to protect her (also taking a cue from the promise scene, but not really understanding it) - but yeah it does miss that Tifa is fine with Cloud how he really is (so is Aeris too given her lines in the gondola at the Gold Saucer. Soooo often seen any attraction between the two attributed solely to her seeing elements of Zack in him. Sigh). And the fights in CoT... they still never read as the relationship breakers some seem to interpret them as. Admittedly that they're fighting at all/not getting on great isn't wonderful, but its not as bad as I've seen some imply. So yeah, it does sound more like a result of anti-pairing rather then any pro-arguments for why they work together. Actually thinking about it, I think I've seen only one fic of the pairing and that was with Tifa losing her virginity to him (and the fic not dwelling on any of the inherent complications with the other relationships because of this).
Ah! Sorry for that confusion about Aeris still getting over Zack. It was for the most part the people claiming she didn't get over him so she can't love Cloud. That's a frustrating argument and also seemingly beloved of the Zack/Aeris or Cloud/Tifa camp. Its also the refusal to allow ambiguity, or realistic human relationships where there's a good chance its not going to work at all the first time. The other point was for the sex fic is I've been working off the relationship being a lot stronger, a lot closer and a lot more passionate then CC's, and in addition to this, Aeris is still hung up on Zack, but she knew him longer - and like with Cloud its never stopped her having other sexual partners, she had the same rules she does with Cloud. I am still a little dubious about Aeris hearing Zack die as well - though the only way I have of working that requires reasonably precise timing/for Aeris to be somewhere other then her home/the church, and it does make sense for why she might be hung up on Zack more now; she was ready and willing to move on and then out of nowhere she feels him die very close-by.
But you are right; the sex-fic is very much Aeris still getting over Zack (and did form the easiest way of making the concept work in the first place), so that was a confusing thing to say! But yes, it is more about the intensity of her feelings/the progress she is making/doesn't make in many fics (and the sex fic is intended to be right at the tipping point when her feelings for Zack have faded sufficiently).
You do have a really good point about not seeing the intimacy between any of the characters; no lingering touches, or reconsidered attempts to touch. And Cloud/Tifa does have distance as you noted; the closest they get (both OGC, AC and CC - I'm not sure they're actuially on-screen together in DoC!) is when Cloud is being protective - or her on the bike with him/the hand hold to get him up to Bahamut (I've got to mention that Avalanche flipping Cloud up to Bahamut in AC is semi-embarassingly my favourite moment of the film. It's cheesy, its physically impossible, the sheer physics of the movements make no sense, but I absolutely love it. And then that Aeris is there at the end for the final push; perfect. *ahem*). And yeah, Cloud/Aeris is likewise hampered by little contact (I do like her touching his arm as well! Which... is exactly the kind of gesture I'd want to see between any of the would be lovers. It's some contact, not totally intimate, but its enough to suggest a desire for contact) outside of the burial (*sniffle*). True, Zack/Aeris has the most depicted contact, but as you said, two of those are before they're really going out, and the third is comforting for the death (at his own hands) of his mentor.
Heh - yeah in the original game, those kinds of gestures would be difficult given the nature of the character models.
Re; The Simpsons - well its only one episode never referred to before or after again; such is the town's acceptance of the fake he's even accepted by the real Skinner's mother without reservation or comment.
Good point about the different fandoms. Yeah AC was 2005 (I forget if the English release was the same year as I couldn't wait and got hold of that as soon as it leaked), and that was the first new installment (KH was earlier but doesn't really count). Haha - yeah definitely only two real ways for Cloud to go with legitimacy, while Harry Potter was open to a lot of debate (...it does seem that no one wanted him with Cho which is a little odd given that one kind of happened). And true, Harry/Ginny was there from the start with the crush... I never got the impression Harry would wind up with Hermione though - that one never made sense to me right from book one; it was Ron and Hermione for sure (to the point I think in one of the books I was convinced they'd got together and escaped mention as they were so very relaxed around each other). And heh - yeah I can see the initial Harry/Ginny shippers being very, very smug at being right.
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-08-27 10:42 pm (UTC)and can't even tell when a SOLDIER is standing right in front of her with a Shinra uniform and a broadsword on his back before she starts saying SOLDIERs are scary because they love fighting? \o_O/Though yeah, that Crisis Core is the standard when it doesn't try to mesh with anything else--Before Crisis shows both Zack and Aerith during their dating period, doing things that don't mesh quite right with Crisis Core's portrayal of it (at the same time, BC Zack's "flirting" is as far as I can tell just very mild compliments, so yeah it's about the Turk being a pretty girl, but it never seems like he's trying to score a date or anything; more problematic I'd say is that BC Aerith does not have a jot of concern about Zack when she's running off from Midgar (or about the sky for that matter)), CC Aerith doesn't square very well with OGC Aerith--is really exasperating at times.
And yeah, of course different groups are going to like different lines. TAKE IT UP WITH SE, THEY'RE THE ONES WHO DECIDED TO BACK THEM ALL BY PUBLISHING THEM AS OFFICIAL MATERIAL.
I will be so annoyed if Zack factors into the romantic situation in KH3, I swear. Like, I have no problem with him actually showing up with Cloud / Aerith / Tifa, because of my headcanon of how he's connected to Cloud meaning the happiest ending for Cloud would involve Zack being alive. I don't even have a problem with him having a throwaway flirting line to Aerith and SE throwing in a tiny Zerith fix that way, given that BBS established him as flirtatious with Aqua. But by that same token I will be unhappy if he never asks Sora about Aqua and shows zero interest in her given that the plot is supposed to be about getting all these people back and, more than being something of a ladies' man, Zack is that guy who makes friends quickly and remembers them. So he should be curious about Aqua's well-being (and Terra's, and Ventus's). And Aerith cares a lot about Cloud, and if they just do instant, neat Cloud/Tifa & Zack/Aerith that will be. Yes. Annoying.
(Ahah, yeah, Zack's request was not for her to wear it all the time because that would have been weird. ...So instead she's still wearing it all the time five years later, like that isn't weird. I just don't think there was a lot of good sense going into the idea of him asking her that.)
Yeah, some people accept retcons wholesale, particularly if they got into the compilation after the original game (which is the case for both Danseru and another fan I know like this...) so there's just really never going to be an agreement on that because they like the stories the retcon made possible while we're being annoyed that the writers couldn't figure out how to make an interesting story without jettisoning parts of the old story we liked. It does feel like laziness, though I'm sure there's also executive pull going on with the writers, too; if they want a great love story to sell, it's hard for the writer to go "well but while they were on the run it took him until he was nearly at Midgar to really think about her". So.
I like BC Zack as an extension of OGC Zack. Granted since he's a 1-episode cameo it doesn't exactly give broader characterization, so I can still see people finding that hard to write for, but he does reinforce the OGC points--he's friendly to women, but he's also just friendly to EVERYONE and thinks a single meeting is enough to establish a friendship and tries to talk Essai and Sebastian back to sanity after AVALANCHE mutates them because they're friends to him, so it's really easy to see how this is the same guy Aerith is talking about in OGC and the same guy who was friendly to Cloud even when he wasn't very talkative as a trooper and wouldn't give up on him when he was even less talkative. (Not that Crisis Core Zack clashes with OGC... well, a little with the "ladies' man" thing seeming weird... but BC Zack managed to reinforce that characterization with minimal weirdness about him/his relationships with others added in--he got a new trait in not wanting to kill if he could avoid it, but we also see in the exact same episode that he will kill and pretty easily justify it to himself if he has to and arguably simply if it's an enemy he has a personal grudge against (it's the person responsible for Essai and Sebastian's mutations and deaths); he's a nice guy to work with, but he's still a SOLDIER.)
I think it's the "innocent"/naive thing that keeps making people put her as blank slate and...ugh, yeah, this is why I will always like original game Aerith best and hope at least part of the fandom still remembers her (but yeah, SE hasn't helped either). And yeah, claims of CC not damaging her character just make me think "but did you really understand her character in the first place???" /biased Aerith fan XD
HAHA yeah this would be. An interesting discussion on tumblr. It does give idea for posts, but I pretty much keep my tumblr posts to pro-stuff since that is so much easier and arguing over fandom stuff really isn't much fun (sometimes interesting. But only sometimes.)
I just like sharing the roleplay stuff because I find it interesting. Some CC roleplayers also dial down the whole "honor and dreams" thing, or cast doubt on parts of it--I don't remember if it was in the thread I linked you before, but the Zack rper I'm playing off of atm has him doubting if it was really a good idea for him to tell Cloud to be his 'living legacy', if that wasn't also a bit selfish/self-serving (not that he's beating himself up too much about it, because hey, HE WAS DYING, but you know. maybe in retrospect not the best idea.)
(The really odd thing for me is people getting mad about "proof I existed" being translated into "living legacy" and that living legacy puts a much higher burden and it's like... "proof I existed" might sound simpler, but it still implies a lot? Cloud was asked to live both their lives/on Zack's behalf either way, and this is a promise that still weighs on him in AC even though he has remembered Zack for a long time now, so he shouldn't think he's failing if it was as simple as that? I just. I don't really think it's the translation that's bad, I just think it's one hell of a last request that makes sense for Zack to want but isn't easy on someone like Cloud who takes everything seriously and personally and is not good at perspective (if something goes wrong it's his fault like 100% of the time).)
lmfao the acid rain dysfunction is from the same Zack who kept finding weapons everywhere so...yeah.
At any rate the "little moments of weirdness" really is a neat take on it to me; and yeah, what Zack sacrificed for Cloud...it was interesting to see how determined Zack was to not make Cloud remember anything from the labs, more than he already did, and it really made sense given how hurtful the memories were for him.
Yeah, I don't think the CoT fights are relationship breakers, it's just... ............I'm still annoyed at CoT because it's like but how do they work (no seeing the silly conversations, no seeing them actually patching up after a fight, things get better because of Denzel coming in...) But yeah, at any rate Zack/Tifa just doesn't have canon support for it. It's crack. It's really good-looking crack, going by some fanart I've seen, but it is kind of pair the spares with them at best...and kind of anti-shipping at worst.
Ah, I don't think you have to work Aerith knowing Zack is dead into your fic; that's my own headcanon, and people have headcanon both ways on that so I think people will understand whichever way it's taken. But yeah, Aerith making progress in her feelings is good! and...I'm frazzling on things a bit, excuse my brain. That does make sense though to have her relationship have been more passionate, and I did get that sense from some of her thoughts about him...
Oh, I forgot about the bike; that's a nice moment for them too. ...Now Cloud needs to hold someone without it being about lives in danger or lost (I think the fandom would lose it though. Unless they did this with both girls in the same entry. And then people would lose it even more. ...........Am I a horrible person for wanting to see this in Kingdom Hearts III just to see how many people would want to tie it back into Final Fantasy and what they would make of Cloud having had little affectionate touches with both girls?).
(Also the fact that I just made myself giggle over purely hypothetical scenarios means I should probably just go and write fanfic where Cloud is actually the one initiating Nice Touches That Have Nothing To Do With Danger.)
But yes the Bahamut scene is incredibly impossible, and cheesy, and just awesome anyway. AVALANCHE friendship > physics and logic. Clearly.
I never got the Cho bashing in the fandom; she seemed just fine to me. Actually in Book 1 Harry/Hermione was a thing for me given her comments to him as they go to get the Sorcerer's / Philosopher's Stone, but then in book 2 it was like "oh, I guess not". And then on the other hand I didn't see Hermione/Ron as a thing until much later on (likely because I was relating Hermione to myself and Ron reminded me of guy friends that I really liked but dating would have been like lol no I do not see them that way).
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-08-28 09:22 pm (UTC)(heh - I'd forgotten about the SOLDIER blindness thing. That was so very, very weird). In short; the complaint about that quote was really badly thought out and smacks once again of not allowing a character to have more then one love interest/move on with their lives. Sigh.
I really am going to make myself sit and watch the Reeve, Zack, Aeris and Cloud portions of BC this weekend as they do seem to offer a more interesting view of OGC pre-canon then anything else. And though I've never liked the expanded Turks, the timing of BC versus CC is interesting since its intended to mesh with LO as far as I know - but it certainly sounds more appealing with BC!Zack as an extension to OGC!Zack (and means he'd mesh much cleaner with the LO and AC depictions as well). Haha - yeah as above, Zack's "flirting" in BC seems to have been blown out of proportion to fit a specific stance which requires making him undesirable to Aeris. Aeris running off without a second thought about Zack does indeed seem more detrimental to how serious their relationship was (and heh - glad to hear there's no sky fear at that point).
Ah, but SE are perfect and *know* who Cloud is meant to be with; after all there is all that evidence in those books they didn't (or not without a large degree of suspicion) write. Um.
Oh, I'll be right there with you if we suddenly get a neat Cloud/Tifa & Zack/Aeris scenario (not least because Aeris hasn't even breathed Zack's name) - I wouldn't have brought it up, but its part of that not trusting that SE quite understand what they're doing with their twists anymore, and why a new Compilation entry and a remake of VII isn't that appealing any longer. The flirting line with Aeris sounds the best case scenario if they do want that reference given the BBS scene, but yeah, if there is never a question about Aqua or Terra or Ventus then that's really off. As you say, he makes friends fast and remembers people. Still, a long wait to see what we'll get and a hoping for the best as to what is going to happen. Hopefully Zack is also still alive... (is this the head-canon where Cloud and Sephiroth are formed from a Heartless attack on Zack? Or was that the fic idea?)
(Heh - yeah if Zack had asked her to always wear pink... that would have been really invasive and weird. Not that wearing it all the time five years later isn't also weird (I'm guessing this could be spun as she's always ready and waiting to go on the date as soon as he arrives back, but that's not really an idea I like either). I'd agree, little good sense in the promise; presumably just for someone saying "Hey can we link her costume in here too?" and no one pointing out it wasn't a good idea. Or being over-ruled I suppose)
The more I read about BC!Zack, the more I like the sound of him! Even if it is just a cameo. Friendly to not just women but everyone does sound right for him - and I like the idea a single meeting is enough for him to assume friendship like that, and yeah that feels a better meld with Aeris's brief descriptions (he can love women without being a cheater!) and the kind of person who would drag Cloud out of the lab and across continents). And true, CC doesn't exactly clash... though the ladies man is odd given how badly Zack does with other flirting before meeting Aeris. I like that note about him being a SOLDIER and not wanting to kill if he can avoid it, but can kill and justify it to himself. I think it's... that feels closer to OGC again; its easy to forget that Zack in the reactor ran straight past Tifa after her injury before Cloud got there to confront Sephiroth - while I don't doubt he was concerned about her, his priority was clearly stop Sephiroth before anything worse happens (then again Cloud also runs straight past her to stab Sephiroth and then returns to help her, so I'm not sure what point I was trying to make anymore)
So very much agree; OGC Aeris is the best incarnation of her character! And at least will always remember her like that (after a few admitted hiccups; there was a period after I hadn't played the original game or read any fics for a few years and I found myself falling into the trap of considering her "innocent" and naive; mostly due to CC and AC I would suspect. Fortunately re-watching the in-game footage/rediscovering (some) fanfics made clear she wasn't like that at all). And I'm making sure I don't forget her OGC portrayal again (and yeah SE really don't help with this). It's just too east to write her off as a typical healer who always needs protecting and forget everything she says and does. But it does keep happening, and there are a lot of fics (Love Not Often usually tops my list of nuisances for misrepresenting her since she's horrifically, pathetically physically weak in a way utterly at odds with OGC. On top of the other issues in the fic) like that. At times I do wonder if some of the hate/dismissal of her as a character is more due to seemingly so many people coming away from the games with the wrong impression of her, or simply not remembering what she did do versus what people assume she did. The Compilation doesn't help, but even at release, people liked painting her as weak and a typical white mage character. I'm a biased Aeris fan too; but I'd agree - there is this weird inability to understand Aeris's character (well, it happens to Tifa alot as well, but the skew for her is in a completely different direction).
Haha - yeah arguing over fandom on tumblr isn't fun. I lost soooo much time when I was trying to actively debate and frequently I found myself going around in circles. pro-stuff is much easier! And more fun to read overall (like the how you ship Cloud/Aeris was point-making, funny and accurate to your mindset at the same time). I think the arguments can be interesting when something is so completely wrong and needs correcting - like the "FFVII cast are jerks" thing which was a weird and untrue statement. Most of the other arguments are over exactly where to slice up the Compilation/which book/quote is favoured over the other ones.
Roleplay stuff is definitely interesting! And you do do a good Cloud as well. Ah, I don't remember Zack doubting his last words in that thread - or at least at the point I read it, but I can see in retrospect him wondering if that really was a good idea. Its a good point about Zack's last words; getting mad over the wording is odd - to me the real irritation is people seeing this as encouragement to see FFVII in terms of Zack rather then Cloud and leads to those people complaining that the bonus FFVII costume in LR should be Zack's instead of Cloud's (...sigh). Its like, Zack got more story, but his part still ended and that is the definitive end for him. The next stage is Cloud's, and it doesn't matter what Zack's dying words were, Cloud outright forgot them for most of the game. And yeah, either way the words imply a heavy burden to Cloud - makes sense for Zack to leave something behind, but not easy for Cloud to bear with.
Oh, I do like that idea of Zack determined to not let Cloud remember his time in the labs (he's so very lucky he never does seem to), and I can see that feeding into his behaviour as they travel; talking about anything and everything *except* the last five years. He's going to try his hardest not to think about it, and getting Cloud coherent again pretty much requires not bringing that time up.
Yeah, CoT does really fail at the show don't tell thing like that, doesn't it? Which is a real problem in that story. I can see the argument being we don't want the silly conversations as we're going for a somewhat bleak tone, but yeah, if that was how they're holding the family together, we really should see that - and especially how they do get back to a semblance of normalcy after a fight. I was going to say that Zack/Tifa would be of possible interest if I was doing a seriously shook up scenario; like Reeve/Aeris and Cloud/Yuffie... but then I realised I'd much rather have Rude/Tifa, so Zack/Tifa is way down the list of considerations and not easy to build a scenario around (okay; unless Zack really is a ladies man and flirts incessantly with Tifa. But then that's also tricky to work unless Cloud's promise is nullified somehow). I think its a if somehow they were removed from the rest of the cast, then yeah it could happen. Otherwise, its a real crack-ship/fan-art only pairing. Definitely pushed for anti-shipping for the most part!
Hehe - not to worry about brain frazzling! And yeah, my assumptions for the previous Zack/Aeris relationship is basically Peace of the Garden with a load of caveats (he didn't take her outside the city at all being one of them), though that's only ever get alluded to.
Yeah the bike in AC is a nice moment too; and there's some nice non-verbal/unspoken expression between Cloud and Tifa there as she just hops onto the bike behind him without encouragement or comment; she wants to go with him to fight Bahamut (I remain slightly annoyed she never does get to really fight with the others and her major contribution is throwing him up to Aeris), he knows she's going to get on the bike. ACC's a bit flashier with saving her from the collapsing beam, so I like AC more where he makes a point of just stopping by her and Denzel, letting her know he's started properly moving on from his guilt before they both head off to the others. And yes! Cloud does need to hold someone for romantic reasons (missed opportunity in DoC! It could have just been him wandering past with the brief glimpse of Tifa in the Seventh Heaven (I had to go check I didn't imagine this bit!) and him touching her arm as he walked behind her). But...yeah fandom would lose it something amazingly. Unless it was both girls in the same entry (and unless it was simultaneously and for the same reasons, there will be hundreds of words of analysis on duration and timing and which one he touches first...). ...no you're not horrible for wanting that for KH3! Though you are right, it'll be instantly tied back into FF and there'll be a lot of justification (based on duration and sequence of the touches) as to what each meant in terms of the LTD and who he really loves the most. It'll keep fandom going for another five years I suspect (until the press conference with Nomura who's finally decided he can't take it anymore and canonises one or more relationship. And then there will *still* be the shippers who reject that as well)
(Heh - I'd like to read that fanfic! So I'm all for that).
Haha - yeah Avalanche friendship is greater then physics and logic (and I am glad that ACC kept that as just Avalanche and didn't feel the need to include Zack as well or something. Which might seem overly paranoid, but I can imagine someone pondering it and being told they were already spending too much on the other altered music tracks/animation, that fiddling with that one wasn't going to make an appreciable difference).
Ah; I actually didn't know there was Cho bashing (I was mostly working off that even as of half-way through there seemed to be three major shipping groups and she wasn't in any of them)! That weirds me out slightly, and yeah I don't understand it either. Nothing of what I remember her doing was objectionable or unrealistic or actively hurtful to Harry. He botched their one date through his own actions, and after that she seems to just fade out of the stories without much of another mention (wikipedia indicates she does show up more then I remember though). It feels again like she was probably considered a roadblock to the more popular ships and/or that she could/would move on/date someone else before Harry is unacceptable (though the Harry/Ginny shippers can't seemingly have a problem with that given Ginny quite obviously was, while the Harry/Hermione lot might take that angle as despite Hermione's dates to various functions there's zero other romance for her from what I remember). It just feels odd that the very canon feelings for Harry (which are unambiguously stated by the character) are ignored in favour of other pairings...
Ah that's fair for not seeing Ron/Hermione like that. I remember there was some little moment in the first book that basically set that relationship up for me (/the third film I think started reinforcing/implying earlier then the books for little things like them holding hands at one point), but I really can't remember what it was.
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-02 06:23 pm (UTC)Gahaha, yeah, the novellas in general are frustrating. I'd say CoT is probably the best-written and we've already talked about how frustrating THAT one is. Maiden just irks me so much when Aerith tries to comfort Jessie, Wedge and Biggs about how she had been "thoughtlessly selling flowers for me" and it's like. Girl, no. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TERRORISM HERE, YOU KNOW THESE TWO THINGS AREN'T EVEN COMPARABLE. That and it was weird because why...why would Aerith regard this as bad? She needs to make money somehow, they brighten Midgar up, cutting off a flower doesn't kill the plant. Where is the downside of this. At one point I came up with an alternative interpretation that I found a little more satisfying (she's ashamed of the "thoughtless" part of it, that she used her abilities for growing things she enjoyed but didn't figure out how to use them for more until so much later--I kind of make Aerith duty/wanting-to-help-people-driven? Like she's had the guilt trip played on her so many times that her kneejerk reaction is NO (also "shut up Tseng"), but she still feels a little bad about it because she really does want to help the people of the slums, Elfé, etc. She's just too aware that if she does it on Shinra or BC AVALANCHE's terms she's going to get absolutely screwed over.), buuuut 1) I'm pretty sure that's not how it was meant to be read 2) still doesn't quite compare to terrorism 3) I was later told the line had been mistranslated and it's actually about Aerith shortchanging people on gil. ...............Which I think is even stupider, because OGC Aerith showed she was plenty willing to rip people off blatantly by charging them ridiculous prices if she didn't like them, not palming a few gil as she hands back change.
...There are other things I don't like about Maiden, but that one line always sticks out at me because I've heard two versions of it and I don't think either make sense for Aerith.
It's both nice and not about Aerith having feelings for Cloud--because on the one hand, she obviously does, on the other, she takes a step backward on distinguishing Cloud from Zack for no discernible reason. On her date she specifically talks about the way Cloud and Zack move and walk and talk being what they share in common, then makes it clear that she knows they're different. And I think this is great! Because obviously they are different in personality, and it makes it clearer that she likes Cloud as who he really is, not the Zack factor (especially since she also specifically says the physical similarity "bothered" her--like, yeah, it was probably really intriguing on one level, but the Zack resemblance was not an overall positive thing in her book. BECAUSE REALISTICALLY, THAT'S SOMEWHAT CREEPY). And then in Maiden she starts trying to think of the things that were only Cloud's and she goes through his gestures and that's why she gets Zack and it's just. Sigh. Aerith you already covered why that wouldn't work, can you please keep track of what you know
...and that's me on Maiden. Actually even Dismantled has little niggles for me, even though I also find parts of it cute (Cloud saying "Aerith used to smile like a flower" makes me smile a bit because it is corny, but it actually fits how he'll sometimes use more ...dreamy? phrases, like "a floating city" or "a sealed-up secret"/"tender memories"; I also tend to expand the phrase in my mind, Cloud thinking Aerith smiled the way some flowers turn toward the sun, always finding the light) so yeah in general for me original game first, Advent Children/Crisis Core/Before Crisis/OTWTAS second, Dismantled/Maiden/Ultimania third, I don't even know what I would want to take from Dirge except the fact that Cloud has obviously not delved back into another bout of self-loathing or anything.
I saw the reframing/retraction and --well, that was a few days ago so it's a little vague in my mind now, I just still find it odd. Like, the basic point of their post, when you get down to it, is that it doesn't make sense for Aerith to downplay the relationship with Zack given Crisis Core and that Maiden is not part of the compilation so the quote should be invalid.
...That is what she was doing A LOT in the original game, which is definitely part of the compilation, there wouldn't be one without it! Crisis Core wouldn't lead you to expect that, but it's what happens, because there's a five year gap between most of the action in Crisis Core and the original game and Aerith doesn't hear from Zack in all that time. There's ways to rationalize it with her loving Zack, but that is what she does. If the original game still makes sense, which it should, it is the foundation for the compilation, the Maiden quote is perfectly possible as a thing for Aerith to say. But with both SA and the OP being ridiculous it did not seem like a fun post to get into.
lmfao the SOLDIER blindness was me thinking "I shouldn't say I think CC Aerith is dumber than OGC Aerith BUT SHE DOES THIS STUFF".
Check out BC! ...If...you didn't already. It is Monday. /I AM LATE.
(is this the head-canon where Cloud and Sephiroth are formed from a Heartless attack on Zack? Or was that the fic idea?)
That's the fic idea. The headcanon is that Sephiroth tried to use both Cloud and Zack as possible candidates to be a vessel for him (like how in KH2 he says Cloud's darkness keeps calling him back and that he IS Cloud) and pitted them against each other to stir up their darkness. Except after BBS' events Zack was savvy enough not to get competitive against Cloud and tried to reach out to be his friend... and then bad things happened and basically Cloud became Sephiroth's vessel while blaming his weakness of heart for why Zack was lost to the darkness. VERY HEADCANONY and I'm sure the actual story will be at least somewhat different, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they took that kind of basic story, a little like FF7 but in KH terms? They were friends, something terrible happened to Zack but since this is Kingdom Hearts it may not be irreversible, Cloud has felt a heck of a lot of guilt about it and it's part of why Sephiroth has a hold over him.
(then again Cloud also runs straight past her to stab Sephiroth and then returns to help her, so I'm not sure what point I was trying to make anymore)
Cloud is a gd berserker, BC pretty much cemented that. (Actually given that he does say afterward he thought Tifa was a goner, I also wouldn't really be surprised if his first look at Tifa had him thinking she was already dead. I mean, his dialogue to Sephiroth has him telling him to give him his mother and Tifa back, like they're both dead. Then he came back and realized oh, she was still alive, if not for presumably long.)
Haha yeah, Love Not Often was pretty odd on Aerith. I hate when she's made pathetically physically weak because it's just. SHE TRAVELS WITH AVALANCHE no one ever breathes a word that could be taken the slightest way that she might be slowing them down or be more delicate, it just doesn't happen. She's keeping up with the group, she's not weak. (I imagine a resurrected Aerith would be a bit behind the group, as they got a whole bunch of training in fighting things like WEAPONs that she didn't, but she could catch up!) And yeah, that people did this even just after release or remember her as innocent even from game time suggests that people just can't help pidgeonholing her as the typical white mage (and yeah, Tifa gets stuck in different roles).
Yeah, some arguments are worth having (or just correcting). And heh, the Cloud/Aerith post was fun for me to write. (I'm playing around with a Cait Sith post right now and keep tangenting on the whole "guys it's so much fun if you assume he's an accurate fortune teller all along" part, lmfao.)
Ah, I looked at the thread again and the point of Zack doubting his last words was both pretty early (before I linked you, pretty sure) and very brief. But yeah... Kulshedra was talking about the death scene painting the original game in a different light too, and it is pretty bothersome that way (what were the writers thinking...it really is like no one stopped and said "hey guys I know Zack is our main character, but let's remember all these guys are important." NOPE.)
I think I like Zack/Tifa as a fun dating thing, kind of a background pairing in a fic (or a side note for one of their characters; like, they're friends of friends beforehand, they think hey, maybe this will be fun, if they break up within the story it's on amicable terms and they remain friendly (maybe Zack can be a sparring partner for Tifa, too), or they might not break up within the fic's storyline but it doesn't hype them up as a true love romance, they're just having fun. That's an AU kind of set up though. If Cloud was with someone else (not necessarily Aerith, but for whatever reason she's not with Zack either), I can see Zack going for Tifa, as they're both adults, but... ...it's still just not something where there's an immediate reason for Zack and Tifa to appeal to each other so it is a little wondering. I don't think it's a bad pairing, it's just going to come off badly if they're simply slapped together because Cloud and Aerith are together (depending on how quickly the situation changed I imagine both Zack and Tifa might feel a little hurt about it, actually, so they'd probably avoid each other because it'd be all too easy to encourage little bits of each other's bitterness and neither of them want to do that...)
and her major contribution is throwing him up to Aeris
I just thought of someone using this in a shipping argument and started laughing. And jeez, ACC is just ridiculous with the falling beam. If Cloud has enough time to have two separate flashbacks, TIFA HAS ENOUGH TIME TO REACT, DANGIT. Ugh ugh ugh
Unless it was both girls in the same entry (and unless it was simultaneously and for the same reasons, there will be hundreds of words of analysis on duration and timing and which one he touches first...).
this is why I'm horrible, because that was exactly what I was thinking and I'm still just thinking "and that would be hilarious and amazing to see". Especially once symbolism starts getting pulled in.
That weirds me out slightly, and yeah I don't understand it either. Nothing of what I remember her doing was objectionable or unrealistic or actively hurtful to Harry
It pretty much was just "Die For Our Ship", as far as I'm aware. Character blocking your favorite pairing? MUST BE A HORRIBLE CHARACTER.
I heard the films were better at some early setups! Probably helped that coming out after the books, they could get a read on what parts had been sort of of weird for readers in the book series because of insufficient build-up.
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-02 10:58 pm (UTC)... and reading a bit further; 1 & 2 are pretty likely counters to that idea unfortunately. And 3? That's absurd! I'd enver heard that before, but that's lunatic given she is deliberately ripping off those guys outside of the Honeybee Inn. I think you have a pretty good case against Maiden just with that one line really - and indeed, neither makes sense for the OGC character again. I think I must have started speed-reading Maiden as I only remember fragments of it now (curiously it initially seemed somewhat similar to the first ever FFVII fanfic I ever read; I'd just moved to university, gotten Internet access and was wondering what to use it for (my family didn't have the Internet until I'd been away for the first year). So, not sure what to look for I gazed around the room and spotted the box for FFVII and decided to see what came up - I was expecting nothing more then some wallpapers, screenshots and things like that; as a result I found fanfics. The first one was of Aeris's perspective as she returns to the Planet and encounters the innocent child-like form of Sephiroth, and the fic was about her rallying the Lifestream to help the others. And then I had to find more...). That is a good point on Aeris being very clear on her liking Cloud - but the step back... erk. I do like your reasoning there, and how she knows they're different in-game, and that "bothered" line seems to usually get interpreted as a bad thing, but I like that she likes Cloud for who he is, and wants to get past the Zack-ness as that is somewhat creepy! It does sound like while Maiden was written by someone who really wanted and liked the characters/pairing, they didn't take the time to revisit the various scenes or much of the game to keep their text consistent at all.
That does sound cute for Dismantled (and I can totally see Cloud saying those things completely earnestly. ...now I have visions of him trying to write Tifa poems post-AC or something. And he's really, really trying, but its always so corny...); and heh - right with you on order of precendence for the source material - though I might split AC off from ACC and have it as its second tier as it really did try. Cloud's character change is a huge problem, but there seemed more effort for consistency then the later entrants would get to. Haha - yeah I think all that realy can be taken from Dirge is that Cloud isn't back-sliding, but neither has anything appreciably developed.
*cheerfully tosses Maiden off the cliff with the other badness*
Yeah, the invalidation of the quote should be more important then anything else, and Aeris downplaying Zack's importance does to be the thing that causes issues for the eternal Zack/Aeris lot. CC does set itself up as if she never has forgotten about him, has always hoped he'd come back, and she felt him die. And that she would keep on loving him. But as you say, VII repeatedly has her downplaying their relationship and trying to dismiss discussion of it. And yeah, there are ways to rationalize the reaction but it doesn't eclipse her actions, and thus yeah the Maiden quote is perfectly plausible. I'd agree though; getting anywhere near an argument with SA doesn't sound fun (she quoted you (I have all my blocks off at the moment) in one of her attacking Zack posts actually when you pointed out that "girlfriend" was used in that text and in other points)
I checked out BC! And got a little annoyed I seemed unable to find something like a list of which characters were in which chapter. In the end I was cross-referencing dates off of the FFWikia with the dates at the start of the BC videos. So I've now seen Aeris's attempt to leave Midgar, Zack at Icicle Inn and Cloud defending Professor Raleigh. And I really do like how they behave for the most part; Zack is righter seeming, Aeris not being afraid of the sky and wanting to leave the city feels more like her, and I do like Cloud's desperation to prove himself. ...somewhat less keen on his sudden epicness with a sword when needed (as since this was supposed to go with LO, would suggest that Cloud has had some kind of mako treatment somewhere along the line and that's how he defeated Sephiroth), but otherwise they were interesting from a character perspective. I watched a bit of Tifa's episode as well (wow, the player Turk met everyone didn't they?).
I like the KH head-canon! That has a neat rightness to it, though yeah, very possible they'll go another way with it. And yeah, I can see them getting Zack back given this is KH (then he can have his date with Aqua; which I'm sure if somewhat controverisal as I imagine she's mostly paired with Terra).
Aha! Good point on Cloud's mindset. Yeah I can see him thinking she's dead initially, goes to take care of her body and finds she's unexpectedly still alive, tries to take care of her a bit, but then there's Sephiroth to deal with...
Love Not Often: YES. I had the EXACT same reaction all the way through. It just felt so ridiculous to me that she would be like that, to the point she can barely carry anything (yet she pulls Tifa out of the ocean later on unaided), and yes: if she was that weak then someone would have said something on the travels. And she really isn't weak; not physically powerful but not a helpless delicate flower (I should possibly stop bringing that fic up as we keep circling back to it to bemoan another issue with Aeris's depiction. Then again it is oddly one that's very much in favour of her character but is so detrimental to her depiction for some odd contrast between her and Tifa?). The stereotype of the white mage has a lot to answer for, and I don't think it ever really is strictly accurate anyway: people just assume the white mage must be weak. Thinking about it, wouldn't the healing magic make sense for them to have *more* health given their very nature? I can see a resurrected Aeris being behind on training contrasted to the others; but yeah she could catch up/isn't helpless to begin with.
Definitely true! Some arguments are interesting and some need correcting from silliness. Curious about the Cait Sith one now!
Ah, I saw the discussion between you and Kulshedra, and I always agree with that one; the death scene is so different in execution and events it does conflict with the OGC and really bothered me when I first saw it (I was wondering just how the game was going to handle that sequence as I could see it being awkward. The army to fight was the first surprise and felt extraneous. Then that the ending kept on going and going and was so.... Hollywood, and like Kulshedra said, it does overshadow Cloud (I'd agree with your point though that Aeris is more damaged by CC. Cloud at least was his own person prior to the end - but then he goes the same way as Aeris And yeah, it still baffles me no one flagged up that this was a total departure from FFVII...) in a way that is bothersome.
I really like that view of Zack/Tifa; and I can definitely see them remaining amicable if they did break-up. And I really do like the idea of them not doing the true-love thing; they're having fun, they get on well, they like each other, they sleep together; but neither of them is going to consider the other their true love - its like relationship, and one that might endure for a long time, but its not unshakable. It feels kind of like one of those things I rarely see in fics; the couple who aren't definitively in love, but are capable of doing everything a relationship involves, and maybe they like each other/love each other to some degree but that person isn't a soulmate. (maybe I just haven't run into any, but there is that sort of sense of love/marriage first, then sex and relationships. Kind of thing the sex fic was resisting at first). Definitely agree that throwing them together due to Cloud/Aeris is not appealing and makes little sense. I'd still like to see Tifa with Barret or Rude more...
Haha! I'd be surprised if Aeris's contribution in AC hasn't been used as shipping evidence by now, but yeah that would be one of the more insane theories ever (so... does that basically mean evidence for every hand-clasp there? So that's Barret, Vincent, Tifa and Aeris (Cait Sith was on Red, who used his feet, Yuffie pushed his feet and Cid used his spear...). And urgh; yeah the falling beam annoyed me. What's weird is that ACC explicitly changed the moment before it so rather then Cid rescue Tifa, she now beats up the Shadow Creepers herself which I liked. Then she has the falling beam bit and yeah, you'd think she could react in that time. It still bugs me that because she arrives with Cloud she doesn't get much to do versus Bahamut (and I really do feel too picky, but it does seem odd that after six members of Avalanche barely dented Bahamut, they're just going to sit back and let Cloud do his big show-off attacks? It'd make sense if it was after Tifa's speech about Cloud not losing his edge as they had, but at this point they should all go for Bahamut at once really... And are just watching mostly, until they have to race up the nearby tower...)
Awww, you're not horrible. It *would* admittedly be hilarious to watch the explosion of Cloud touching both girls like that - especially if there is some way of making it ambiguous exactly whose arm it is at the time so there are an additional thousane theories about who it must be/what the order is/whether being first or second is better.
Ah, that does make sense. Poor Cho, like Tifa, hated by so many for daring to like another character - and seemingly worse in some people's eyes, for having that character like them back.
Ah - yeah there definitely were advantagements for the lag between the films and the books; it meant at a lot of points they could safely drop extraneous detail which previously might or might not have been relevant. There was admittedly the point where JK Rowling insisted they couldn't drop Kreacher from his first appearance as he'd be later vital to the plot. Which... never really convinced me, as from what I remember of his actions in the final book/overall plot, that could have been worked around.
/hopefully this reads vaguely coherently...
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-03 07:38 pm (UTC)I don't think the "bothered" line really should be read negatively; it's unambiguous that she means the similarities are what bothered her, and that's natural they should, because Cloud was so different in personality otherwise (especially at the start; they do share some core character traits like being concerned for others, but Cloud was initially doing a fair job of covering that up when trying to be the macho mercenary). But yeah, Maiden does seem like hurrah, the person likes the same character/pairing I do! ...I don't like how they portray it...
Tifa would never discourage Cloud from writing corny love poems. She might have to hide smiles a few times, but I'd bet she'd love it, especially after having felt doubtful if he loved her. (Now if Cid or Yuffie or Barret found one of the poems lying around, they're probably going to piss off Cloud with all the laughing...)
Eh, because Cloud is so central to AC, and the change to him was deliberate, I'm kind of :| at that as much as anything. AC's story as framed in the movie would have been completely different if his character hadn't been changed like that.
Also it prompted Emo Cloud in fanfic/roleplay and that was just. no.Plus it's when Barret got separated from Marlene, searching for OIL, the party can't really do anything against Bahamut but toss Cloud up to it, they have him face a potential Sephiroth (which then turns into a REAL Sephiroth) on his own, Rufus and Tseng were both brought back (Tseng being a gray area, but Rufus was a definite retcon), etc. There are things that might have become more overt in other entries, but got their start in Advent Children, and that's why it's not really any better than the rest of compilation for me.Haha, well, being quoted by SA was a risk I took chipping in on that. I'm not too surprised I was, since what I said supports her position.
Ahh, yeah, it is a bit difficult finding which characters are in which BC mission! Reeve/Cait Sith's is 20, if that helps. BC doesn't really say anything about Cloud being enhanced, though? He actually says himself that he's just a 'normal grunt'. I really think the moment with the sword is more like his moment of first stabbing Sephiroth with the Buster sword and then lifting Sephiroth using Masamune, something done while running on pure adrenaline. (The translation for Cloud's statement about his first battle with the sword is "I was desperate. I can't remember what happened."--nothing about it is supposed to be something he thinks he could typically do.)
...The Player Turk does indeed meet a lot of people. I do not like Red or Barret's episodes nearly as much, I will say that now. XD
Then again it is oddly one that's very much in favour of her character but is so detrimental to her depiction for some odd contrast between her and Tifa?
I've had to keep this in mind while writing Sleeping Arrangements myself a bit; I really think that while Tifa and Aerith's character designs are meant to strongly contrast each other, people take that too far and apply it to their personalities too. And parts of their personalities do contrast, but they're more similar to each other than complete opposites. Just because something seems more like Aerith doesn't mean Tifa can't do it too, or vice versa (appreciating flowers is a great canon example of this; they're undeniably Aerith's symbol, but Tifa loves getting one and talks about how she'd like to fill the bar with flowers, so it's easy to imagine her picking up some gardening once she gets the opportunity). And yes! A white mage should be able to take care of their body very well, and that would help with physical training.
I think part of the "was Cloud or Aerith damaged more by CC" is that the point where Cloud's character becomes questionable is part of this HUGE, overdramatic moment--and that's problematic in itself, but at least it was part of trying to make a dramatic thing. Aerith's decline isn't a casualty of hammering an emotional point home...it's just done, like there's nothing extraordinary about a girl being so thoroughly influenced by her love interest. And I think that's part of why it's worse for me.
And yeah, fiction definitely could use couples that work together and do all the things couples do together and are loyal to each other while together but also aren't really convinced they're going to be together forever. And they're not angsting about that either, just taking things day by day and enjoying a good connection. But yeah, Tifa with Barret or Rude would be a preference first.
I'd be surprised if Aeris's contribution in AC hasn't been used as shipping evidence by now
Oh Aerith's contribution certainly has been, but I meant your specific phrasing: Tifa's major contribution being to throw Cloud to Aerith. That's what made me laugh.
and I really do feel too picky, but it does seem odd that after six members of Avalanche barely dented Bahamut, they're just going to sit back and let Cloud do his big show-off attacks
No, that is definitely one of AC's problems.
Kreacher might have been a favorite of Rowling's--I forget everything that happens with him, but it's likely she thought he was part of making an important point in the books, and maybe the plot really could have been worked around him but how he helped the plot was also part of a message she didn't want lost. Just what pops up in my mind.
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-03 08:53 pm (UTC)Maiden always does seem curious to me, as I only found out about it relatively recently; it was hard to miss the Compilation or the novellas, but that one was never really made much of. But yeah; hooray shipping support... switftly followed by disatisfaction at portrayal. Good point on the Cloud and Zack similarities for Aeris. I just tend to see people running with the similarities in a Cloud/Aeris negative light; people are very quick to make Aeris's entire interest about how much like Zack Cloud seems rather then (as seems depressing usual) reading the actual lines of dialogue that reference this. Then again that ties back into her character being presented wrongly...
I think Yuffie has to find the cache of love poems Cloud's written for Tifa (both sent and unsent) and is found in hysterics on the floor much to Cloud's annoyance (so going to use Cloud the corny poet as a head-canon for something later. I do have to wonder how Aeris would respond to the poems instead). But yes, Tifa would be so very grateful, even if she can't help but laugh very little at some of them - and it would mean so much to have that kind of concrete returned affection/explanation for the long hours Cloud has been staying up scribbling something, and why his floor is strewn with screwed up notepaper.
Ah, fair point on AC; it would have been a very different film with Cloud in character (in fact I think it basically throws the whole plot out. Maybe Geostigma still happens, but Cloud isn't about to succumb to it. Wondering if he'd still meet Denzel...). And yeah for all Barret's father-hood talk he does run off from Marlene again for oil. And YES. WEAK AVALANCHE IS ANNOYING. And the only the big sacrifice people/second tier villains are allowed to die (I... am kinda surprised they let Scarlet and Heideggar remain dead like that. Hojo sort of had bearing on DoC, even if he didn't come back fortunately). So yeah, I can see the logic of lumping it in with the Compilation in general. And to be fair, no AC, no Compilation full-stop, which would have spared a lot of strife. Though it probably has kept the fandom more active then it would have been; though at the cost of less speculative pre/post canon, and typical adherence to AC and CC over VII itself...
Thank you for Reeve/Cait Sith's mission! I shall investigate that one now. And true, BC doesn't say anything about Cloud being enhanced, I was just connecting it to LO myself since I know the two are closer related then some other Compilation entries (...and I am curious. Is BC still counted as canon for the Compilation? Since some of it does seem so at odds with CC character-wise (near impossible to see CC!Aeris or CC!Cloud behaving like their BC depictions) if not event-wise), so I figured that whatever lead to Cloud's mysterious glowing eyes in LO would likely have already occurred to him in BC. Otherwise, I would fully concur, its another desperation attack and not how he'd behave normally.
(thinking about it; I remember that Cloud's ultimate weapon in VII does more damage the higher Cloud's hit-points. From this discussion and his in-game actions, it really feels like maybe he should be at his strongest when on his least health? Those do seem to be his moments to shine; even in the Compilation as well)
Ah, while I didn't find Naanki's episode, I know I'm going to be annoyed by that one thanks to Deneh and the forward implications of that retcon and how it doesn't fit (even if Hojo had told Nanaki Deneh was dead, Nanaki's behaviour would be at odds with in-game depiction again). Plus I think aren't there implications he is tied closer to the Planet and the Cetra then VII even began hinting at? Barret... ah! Isn't that something about him meeting Shalua Rui and her making him his gun-arm? I vaguely remember reading that for her only other appearance in the Compilation.
Yeah, people are contrasting Aeris and Tifa's personalities along with their designs; but the latter was intended, the former really not. It feels slightly absurd that people do have to keep drawing attention to the fact that Aeris and Tifa were friends. Actual friends who wanted to spend time with each other, and weren't hating the other for any reason at all). And true, there is a contrast, but there's them clicking right off when the meet - similar enough to get on the same wavelength easily. I think I saw a post from Betterbemeta before about just what you say here! The boiling characters down to single traits - and something seeming more like one of them does not preclude the other from liking it too. The flowers I have seen all too often construed (/ranted about when SA complains about re-appropriating Clerith symbols for Cloti) as solely about Aeris - and once again, you've noted the in-game appreciation of them that Tifa has (incidentally, Marlene is totally filling the Seventh Heaven with flowers post-Companion Planting. And Tifa is going to pleased to finally get that). And I kind of like the idea then that in AC she's also been stopping by to help the plants before Denzel arrived and required attention (...which always leads back to that problematic plot-point; Tifa and Marlene left the sick Denzel unsupervised in the Seventh Heaven to walk all the way to Midgar and visit Aeris's church - seemingly just because they felt like it).
Glad the white mage idea sounds good! Wonder if that idea ever has been used...
Ah, that is a good point on CC for Cloud versus Aeris. Cloud's was part of the emotional impact, to make the game ending seem less bleak, less blunt, while Aeris is just wrecked for no good reason other then to try and entangle Zack into the narrative as tightly as possible. And very true! She's become so ordinary as a result and has no ambition or drive anymore. Its difficult to see her trying to leave the city like BC had it. It's even more difficult to see her randomly approaching Cloud after the first reactor bombing, or running into Wall Market after Tifa (or basically any moment in FFVII).
Glad the couple idea sounds good too; and its only on reflection it so rarely seems to come up. Is it that usually romance and couples are built around pairs to the exclusion of other behaviour so once they are together they just stick and never part again? I would like to see more loyal couples, without angst, who aren't just using the other to fill in a hole (real or perceived) in their lives, just enjoying a good connection as you say and taking each day as it comes. And the break-up (if it happens) is very amicable. I think I see Barret/Tifa or Rude/Tifa in this kind of setup. Possibly Yuffie/Tifa as well. An idea for the pile, but I think it needs to be part of something larger...
Oh! Completely missed that meaning! Wow; how has no one made something of that specific action. ...we possibly shouldn't ever point this out - as amusing as it would be to see the possible melt-downs/enthusing about how Tifa clearly ships Cloud/Aeris because of that (as she totally knew that flinging Cloud into a fireball would let him see Aeris like that. Totally).
Kreacher... from what I remember knows where one of the Horcruxes is - specifically the one that they failed to get at the end of Half-Blood Prince, though I really can't remember quite how that worked in the end...
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-06 06:29 pm (UTC)people are very quick to make Aeris's entire interest about how much like Zack Cloud seems rather then (as seems depressing usual) reading the actual lines of dialogue that reference this
The other depressingly usual thing being taking lines out of context. HELLO ALL OF LTD. (So tumblr kindly fixed itself for me and I went looking again at a few followers' blogs to see if I wanted to follow them back and that's how I found SA taking "Cloud and Tifa aren't being good friends" to be THEY WERE NEEEEVER GOOD FRIENDS)
And yeah, I think Maiden doesn't get made much of because people just don't like it that much outside of some Clerith/Aerith fans. I mean, besides her, it was really just about minor characters, so not as much fanbase to gain traction in...
Aerith would teasingly point out the corniness of the love poems/letters (I can see Cloud just going for regular prose because he tries a poem and it's like ...rhyming structures. what are those). And then be all "Nooooo, don't stop, they're cute!" when he huffs out that he's not doing any more. But yeah, Yuffie would definitely be too amused at finding them.
(in fact I think it basically throws the whole plot out. Maybe Geostigma still happens, but Cloud isn't about to succumb to it. Wondering if he'd still meet Denzel...)
I can see Cloud still getting Geostigma (especially as with AC being the work to introduce the disease, they could make it work however they want), but I think there'd be a huge difference in that Tifa would actually know he has it. Likewise I don't think him finding and taking in Denzel conflicts with anything, though there might be a minor change in that Tifa knows all along he was found at the church (heck, maybe she was there for the finding). But it'd just make a huge, huge difference in the emotional story and tone of the movie.
And yeah for all Barret's father-hood talk he does run off from Marlene again for oil.
I do like that at least Cid is bitingly sarcastic about him having left Marlene with Cloud and Tifa (something like "Good job. Whole world's clapping you on the back") but it is incredibly frustrating.
There definitely are advantages to the compilation, though, like you said, reviving interest in the fandom. It's just wishing they would have been more careful with it.
Before Crisis is counted as canon according to Ultimanias, and I've never seen it suggested anywhere that it's be de-canonized by something else. That it conflicts with Crisis Core so much just proves that compilation is screwy and "canon" means... it's questionable what it means. XD
(thinking about it; I remember that Cloud's ultimate weapon in VII does more damage the higher Cloud's hit-points. From this discussion and his in-game actions, it really feels like maybe he should be at his strongest when on his least health? Those do seem to be his moments to shine; even in the Compilation as well)
Yes and no--that he gives his all when he's desperate, and his all is often underestimated is definitely true, but the Ultima weapon isn't a personal weapon, and its changing strength isn't based on something he's doing. It's a recurring weapon from VI, where it was also based on "the more health you have, the harder it hits", and in both games it glows brighter the more HP its wielder has (in VI shown by the length of the blade, VII actually was able to change luminescence in its graphics). So it's not a trait of Cloud's, it's a trait of the blade; he just happens to be the only one who uses a sword in VII. (With VII you can even get into a sort of pseudo-science explanation on why it works that way--because each person has spirit energy within them, and that energy flows within its own current in the body, the sword can passively leech off its wielder's current to add more bite to the blade. As the wielder is weakened, it leeches less, either because it recognizes HEY THEY PROBABLY NEED ALL THEIR SPIRIT ENERGY RIGHT NOW or because the current has become less stable/more unpredictable with injury for passive magic to keep working effectively.) I think the Limit Break system plays pretty well with that trait of Cloud's anyway.
Plus I think aren't there implications he is tied closer to the Planet and the Cetra then VII even began hinting at?
I honestly can't remember; been a while since I read it. The whole thing with the Cosmo Candle seemed a bit weird anyway, but it's really Deneh's existence that's problematic.
Barret... ah! Isn't that something about him meeting Shalua Rui and her making him his gun-arm?
...Possibly worse? (Maybe that tidbit is in Shalua's episode, which is later--I want to say 21, but I'm not sure and I didn't finish looking through that.) Barret's episode is about the reactor mishap that led to Shinra razing Corel.
And I kind of like the idea then that in AC she's also been stopping by to help the plants before Denzel arrived and required attention (...which always leads back to that problematic plot-point; Tifa and Marlene left the sick Denzel unsupervised in the Seventh Heaven to walk all the way to Midgar and visit Aeris's church - seemingly just because they felt like it).
I'm a little confused because I don't know where the idea is from that she was helping with the plants before Denzel arrived? It just doesn't really seem suggested by anything in Case of Tifa--but it WOULD have been nice. And...yeah, leaving the sick child alone at Seventh Heaven to check on the church. /_\ HERE WE SEE CHILDCARE HAS NOT IMPROVED SINCE OGC.
That post by betterbemeta does seem vaguely familiar, now that you mention it. :|a
as amusing as it would be to see the possible melt-downs/enthusing about how Tifa clearly ships Cloud/Aeris because of that (as she totally knew that flinging Cloud into a fireball would let him see Aeris like that. Totally)
And on that note, I love how there's that shot of Tifa landing with the group and then just a pause as they all look up. I keep filling in their thoughts as "Well, we sure did just throw Cloud up to a fiery ball of death. Um. Hopefully he comes back down in one piece."
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-06 08:40 pm (UTC)Hooray for tumblr fixing itself! Possibly slightly less for for running across SA's post. That said, your response was really, really good - and people do keep overlooking how young Marlene is and how she can't be reading that deeply into actions. And yeah, taking that quote to mean they're never good friends/never will be good friends (the other really iffy thing about some LTD discussions; if it's not true at point x, it never can be true! Often used against Tifa for Nibelheim childhood. Sigh) is really frustrating - and the out of context line throwing is silly. And I still find SA's attitudes to just court frustration; the end of her post saying "I'm not going to discuss this/I don't want to discuss this" just makes her position sound weak; if she's not going to even debate it it doesn't exactly sound like terribly good evidence. This is also from someone who was prepared to chuck all non-game sources out a while back (but as soon as a useful quote comes up?)... And as usual I want to ask the fandom at large; do we have to have a single anser/single pairing? The game had flexibility in attitudes and scenes, let's carry on with its open to interpretation; the Compilation is less ambiguous if you want clarification.
Awww *imagining the scene with Aeris teasing over the corniness/calling for Cloud to come back as she really does like them despite that...*
I can see Cloud still getting Geostigma (especially as with AC being the work to introduce the disease, they could make it work however they want), but I think there'd be a huge difference in that Tifa would actually know he has it. Likewise I don't think him finding and taking in Denzel conflicts with anything, though there might be a minor change in that Tifa knows all along he was found at the church (heck, maybe she was there for the finding). But it'd just make a huge, huge difference in the emotional story and tone of the movie.
Ah, true that Denzel doesn't conflict with anything, I was just not sure if Cloud would be over by the church like that, though I do like the idea that he is with Tifa and this is a regular visit to look after the plants and flowers there - and yeah that does change things as there's no need to be shy or evasive about where he did find Denzel. And ack! Yeah I was thinking of Geostigma remaining exactly the same rather then its nature and effects necessarily altering due to Cloud's more consistent character and that he doesn't have to allow himself to be vulnerable in the same way (which makes Geostigma much nastier as likely then it could strike completely healthy individuals without warning). Following it through, Cloud isn't going to run off to Aeris's church anymore, and neither would he need persuading to pursue the remnants. Almost everything from the Bahamut fight onwards could likely stay the same I think...
Oh, definitely wish they'd been more careful with the Compilation - and it does just feel odd how they weren't; I could kind of understand if a new group of people were responsible, but when its a lot of the same staff... Ah, interesting on BC still being canon - and yeah that does make the Compilation canon screwy as even if we are to accept as some do that any points where CC and VII clash we're supposed to take CC as correct due to it being more recent, what do we do with BC clashes versus CC or VII? Canon for the Compilation is questionable!
Oh! Thank you, that's really interesting on Ultima Weapon - completely failed to make that connection back to VI (though I remember the blade going translucent in VII/forever keeping Cloud's health topped up). And I do like your spirit-energy ideas for various things like the more personal based limit breaks.
Deneh has bugged me ever since I heard she existed; I do understand why they felt the need to introduce her to the series at all - given Nanaki's cubs at the end of VII, but I've never seen a compelling reason why she had to be introduced in BC; there was no reason she couldn't have come in with DoC, or even (and I realise this would have been more satisfying) if Case of Nanaki had been about him finding her in his travels, making contact and starting to undo notions she has about human-kind (assuming she has been hunted/otherwise persued as a rare beast - and she also thought she was the only one of her kind left). It just feels like a weird lack of attention; bring her in after VII has been concluded to not contradict it/Nanaki could still have been captured in BC if depicting this was that important, just not bringing Deneh into it. *throws up hands*
Ah - that doesn't sound terribly good for Barret's episode (Barret meeting Shalua wouldn't have been so bad really). Well, I've come this far, I'll find that one and watch it (I am happier jumping around in the videos I found, as watching it straight through really was wearying just for the first mission).
Apologies! The whole Tifa stopping by to look after the plants was something random I came up with while typing; and indeed there's no basis anywhere. It just felt a nice idea for Tifa to have taken the time out when she did have a moment to remember her friend again. And I think it might have made the church visit in AC not feel... convenient? Like it was something they did on a semi-regular basis. As it is, the surprise that Cloudn is living there feels odd as he has already admitted to spending more time there... Haha! Yeah, child-care is still lousy in Edge with leaving Denzel alone. It kind of feels a bit like Denzel wasn't included when some of the early scenes were blocked out; so Tifa and Marlene going to the church was fine as they were the only ones living in the Seventh Heaven. Then they added Denzel in/failed to account for him/figured that if Marlene can run a bar at 4, then Denzel must be fine to be terminally ill on his own. Um.
...you realise I will never be able to watch that moment in AC/C again without now adding that thought into proceedings? It is really crazy on relfection. Well, at first its not so bad as they're simply trying to get Cloud up to Bahamut... but then when it starts Megaflare and the last few throws don't appear to worry about flinging Cloud straight into said fireball. I'm wondering now about Cloud's thoughts jsut as he collides with the fireball/manages to not get instantly vaporised...
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-08 03:14 pm (UTC)I'm kind of annoyed now that people discuss her posts like "CLERITHS, STOP" when she's done this so many times, and so long, it's kind of obvious it's...her own niche.
Or pay attention that other Cleriths didn't approve of the post, but I can't tell when that other post got started so ehAwww *imagining the scene with Aeris teasing over the corniness/calling for Cloud to come back as she really does like them despite that...*
lmfao sometimes Aerith's humor goes awry for even her.
Honestly, I don't think I ever imagined the church being completely abandoned post-game, it always seemed like some of AVALANCHE and especially Cloud might visit it as a place Aerith loved... if it survived. Because hahah OGC's ending makes that a bit questionable. But yeah, some things like Geostigma and the story of exactly how Denzel was found would definitely change. And YES, Dirge/Case of Nanaki would have been much better introductions for Deneh (it's like they wanted to have the story of Nanaki's mate at the first possibility and didn't realize...yeah, that totally causes a contradiction with things said in the original game...)
Jumping around videos always works :|b especially for something episodic like Before Crisis.
And yeah, the church visit is really plot convenience in the compilation as things stand; Case of Tifa made it sound like she hasn't been going, Case of Tifa makes it unlikely she went there to find Cloud (as she brings Marlene with, but in Case of Tifa her attitude is to leave the children out of difficulties between her and Cloud--which is how she's looking at the separation, both by her reaction in Case of Tifa and Nomura's comment about her being like a woman left behind by a man), they never do state why they decided to go check it out so it's like...o...kay. I am now imagining Aerith realizing what Cloud is doing and getting kind of "NO WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT" and then she keeps prompting Tifa "Tifa Cloud is being a dummy at the church. My church. Go to the church. You, Cloud, church I promise I will not peek if you two fight and have a sexy make-up. Oh wait you two aren't doing that. Why aren't you doing that? ...right, getting distracted. Church! church church church gooooooooooo." "...? Marlene, would you like to come see a special place with me?"
[Aerith hi-fives Zack in the Lifestream]
Honestly I think if Geostigma still worked to affect people's mindsets (so no matter how IC Cloud was, once it spreads through his body enough he's like /DESPAIR CENTRAL and ends up leaving much the same way again) I would want Tifa to have been worried about him at first because there MUST be something wrong, and then she hears from customers he's okay so then she's got like .2 seconds of relief, and then 20 minutes of "he doesn't love me" max before it kicks in that holy crap he left Marlene too he left Denzel and Denzel is dying and looks up to him, one civil-but-oh-so-very terse angry mama bear voicemail to Cloud's phone later she is going about her business with occasional moments of self-pity, moments of worrying about how the kids are being affected by this, quite a few stray thoughts of punching Cloud, etc. When Cloud doesn't call back in a day Tifa calls Barret and tells him no buts he needs to watch the kids while she goes chocobo-hunting. Now where might Cloud go...
And then she finds the stuff at the church and oh, he has Geostigma, and that answers a few questions, but she still camps out the place because no. nooooooo this was not cool Cloud, and this is not continuing.
...So it'd be somewhat same, somewhat different (Tifa might still fight with Loz, hell, the kids could still be kidnapped but it'd work out differently with Barret watching them) but...yeah AC is just sort of odd in how the premise works, how Cloud and Tifa are both set up as taking care of the children but they really only seem to do that in the big, dramatic ways (they can fight villains for them, but Tifa won't confront Cloud about what to all perception, given everything she knows, is crappy treatment of both her and the children). And then it utterly tore down Barret's father role toward Marlene, he still cares about her but being the one to care FOR her? NOPE
So it's kind of ironic the movie is called 'Advent Children'.
Haha, the Bahamut toss really is pretty crazy by the end o it.
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-08 09:54 pm (UTC)I saw your frustrations on tumblr; and yeah I would agree - she keeps painting all the Cloti shippers as a collective group and there's so many objections to that, but the Cleriths keeping getting tarred with the same brush when either ou retort to a really weirdly made point, or we just stay well away from the posts/don't like or reblog any of it. And yes; it was very, very obvious they were discussing SA rather than anyone else. So; no more LTD in this message! Why are we even surprised by what anyone does anymore? There's the usual increasingly bizarre in-game interpretations/quote throwing/rejection of opposing ships... It's frustrating but nothing anyone says (Short of Nomura himself - and to some, even then) is going to resolve it remotely. So hopefully those prompts are a good distraction.
Thinking in the shower this morning (...yeah this is increasingly a good place to muse on things), I was revisting the idea of the alternate view of CC we discussed ages ago where Zack was enlisted by the Turks to try to tempt Aeris back to Shinra another way - and basiclly AU CC around that idea and alter Genesis and Angeal and fix loads of other niggles. I was then wondering about making it match to the sex fic (which! I have a first idea for a title for: Sefure - being the contraction of Sex Friend as rendered in Katakana) and having this be the how Zack and Aeris's relationship worked. And then getting into the AU/fixing nuisance canon entrants, I was wondering about reworking AC as per the discussions to set Cloud's character correctly/altering geostigma to account for the changes... So in one way there's a trilogy of AU CC, canon-spliced VII, and then AU AC - before however the AU VII scenarion would work as a different branch (this might get confusing).
(also crazy FFVII/Welcome to Night Vale crossover of radio station in Nibelheim with the Turks in place of the Sheriff's Secret Police and Cecil (well it has to be) in love with Gast or something. Not sure it would work at all...)
Haha - yeah so much of the OGC ending was ambiguous... Thinking about it, I like the idea that the official art of Barret and Marlene in the church could be post-VII as its difficult to see it ocurring before then (admittedly that doesn't help terribly for Tifa on the water-tower or Aeris looking at the Highwind, but still).
It is kind of weird then that Deneh was't considered for Case of Nanaki; I vaguely remember the novellas were written in two stages and I suppose its possible the BC Nanaki storyline was already in place before the novella was even started - and yeah it does seem they wanted that question cleared up straight off, even if it does contradict VII like that (I've seen arguments from TLS on why this is't necessarily a retcon, but it does seem to descend into head-canon for what Nanaki, Bugenheagen and Hojo would/wouldn't say at various stages and feels a shakey justifictation for a blatant canon overwrite)
Ah; can't resist Aeris poking Tifa to come collect Cloud from the church; reminds me of a vague idea we had some time before about someone managing to bring up Miss Cloud so he goes and sulks in the church for a while until Aeris gets tired of that and prods Tifa to go fetch him. And I really like her totally not peeking if they have sexy make-up (Zack is busily preparing the Lifestream equivalent of pop-corn for this occurrence and they totally are watching... Actually there is a post-AC fanfic I remember where Cloud and Tifa are having sex for the first time in the church (actually that reminds me there is yet another one - just without the Lifestream peeking)... with Zack and Aeris secretly spying on them... Can't remember the name at the moment though...). But yes, checking out the chuch in AC comes out of nowhere and is so totally disconnected from the last things we saw/heard Tifa (answer the phone/leave a message for Cloud) or Marlene (worrying over Denzel) do that it is a really troublesome plot change. Aeris influencing them is much better! Very much concur Tifa's never portrayed as going there looking to find Cloud - especially with Marlene going along.
That feels like it works for Geostigma in this scenario; and I do like the idea of the angry mama-bear messge she leaves him. And it feels a nice way to alter the aspects of AC that are disconnecting while still letting the story feed into the actual AC events in a more effective way. Definitely liking the momentary relief from Tifa, the brief certainty he doesn't love her and then the angriness about leaving Marlene and Denzel like that and not explaining to her! Plus retaining the despair does mean Cloud could still feel the need to beg forgiveness from Aeris as well... And I really do like the actively focussed and thought-out reason for Tifa to go to the church like that and getting Barret to watch the kids... (it also made me realize that Barret could lose a fight to a rememnant at the Seventh Heaven and both Marlene and Denzel be taken that way; since the...er... black water didn't seem terribly permanent or to really do much to the kids he doesn't have to drink it. And yep! Then Tifa is camping at the church and waiting for Cloud to get back to have some words with him.
Definitely liking the ideas... Altering Barret's role feels a god plan; keep a lot of CoT the same, but rather then leaving he gets a job in Edge and lives with Cloud and Tifa in the Seventh Heaven. You do have a good point about Cloud and Tifa seeming only wanting to take care for the kids in the big dramatic ways rather then just being there for the kids and giving them a safe, comforting environment - especially with Tifa not calling Cloud out on his less then stellar behavior. Haha - yeah, never considered that irony for the title like that...
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-09 06:54 pm (UTC)The AU trilogy sounds interesting; I can definitely see the Zack of the "lure Aerith back to Shinra" being possible to match up to "sex friend" Zack. I...am a little iffy on "Sefure" as a title. Mostly because my association with Japanese titles for fanfiction from experience is that I can expect to be seeing Japanese words in the prose where English words would have done perfectly fine (there is one Cloti fic that stands out to me for this because I've read it twice--the second time it had been long enough for me to forget about the first reading--and it wasn't really great but it was alright and cute and then I got to this exchange of "Tadaima" "Okaerinasai" and it was like aaaaaaaaaaahhhh just say "I'm back" "welcome back"). Though, it does seem like the ideas so far have had a general theme? Matter-of-fact description of Cloud and Aerith's agreement as it first stands (Sefure, Friends with Benefits, The Agreement). ...So I'm not sure if I should be advocating exploring that theme more thoroughly or trying a different angle, lol. (On a different angle I would think something about the interplay of intimacy and truth/openness--how Aerith can see different Clouds, and her keeping things about Zack to herself--but I have no idea how to make that into something catchy. XD
And then for a second I was thinking "Modern Love" but I think that's just because I like a few lines from that song, it's not quite the same situation as Cloud and Aerith have between them otherwise. (But "This modern love is not enough / She said, watch your back, I'm nobody's girlfriend." always makes me think aww yes feisty Aerith. ...And then the "Come on take the phone calls, baby / I'll take all the silence" makes me think of Tifa and Advent Children and Cloud, stop being stupid 8( )
(also crazy FFVII/Welcome to Night Vale crossover of radio station in Nibelheim with the Turks in place of the Sheriff's Secret Police and Cecil (well it has to be) in love with Gast or something. Not sure it would work at all...)
Hahaha I keep wanting to crossover WtNV with stuff too (though in my case it would be Shadow Hearts--From the New World is set in America and deals with both supernatural elements and a certain level of ridiculousness, so it's tempting to see some of the cast driving through the town in an earlier decade...) Actually I kind of wanted to do WtNV for the "Backwards" prompt, but the problem is I've only got a gimmick, not an actual plot or story about why the gimmick's in place.
Then again the prompt just seems to make gimmicks very tempting.(I've seen arguments from TLS on why this is't necessarily a retcon, but it does seem to descend into head-canon for what Nanaki, Bugenheagen and Hojo would/wouldn't say at various stages and feels a shakey justifictation for a blatant canon overwrite)
Any argument is pretty much wasted in the face of Bugenhagen saying "It's a wide world and you must go out and see it... You may even find your life's mate. You never know." There is no way to argue that the line could have meant anything but the "life mate" Red XIII eventually does find and mate with was in an unknown location at that point, outside Cosmo Canyon. There's no reason for Bugenhagen to be misleading in a one-on-one conversation with Nanaki on his deathbed about where Deneh is. There's no reason for Nanaki to be misled when he knows exactly where Deneh is by Before Crisis' events. It's a retcon pure and simple.
...I. I don't think I would actually like a fic of Zack and Aerith spying on Cloud and Tifa having sex.
it also made me realize that Barret could lose a fight to a rememnant at the Seventh Heaven and both Marlene and Denzel be taken that way
Yeah! That'd definitely work. I think the only thing is I can see a director looking at this and thinking setting up the domestic conflict between Cloud and Tifa without making either of them actually look like a 'bad guy' (because goodness knows fans will take sides even on a fight that gets resolved in the movie itself and take it to extremes) would be too long for the action-packed movie they want. Pacing and all (though funny enough pacing turned into a slight issue in ACC anyway...).
Well, I think the only reason I can give for noticing the irony myself is being a bit of a cynic when it comes to compilation. XD
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-09 10:13 pm (UTC)Glad the AU trilogy idea sounds interesting! And that it does seem workable for the spy!Zack to match to the implied one in the sex fic. Fair point on "Sefure" as a title; it was just an idea - and yeah I can see that association making you iffy about it (curious what the Cloti fic was now - cute is at least appealing) as that kind of Japanese word use is so pointless in text like that (there are a few infamous fansub examples where a Japanese word has been left in the translation... (which a case can be made for some things like senpai for brevity) ... accompanied by a translation note of what the word meant. Which was more then a little silly). And ah; yeah the titles so far have all centred on the specifics of Cloud and Aeris's relationship like that... And I do like the idea of exploring the different angle; especially rhe intimacy/truth/honesty angle - but yeah reducing that down to a snappy title is not immediately obvious.
Ah; Modern Love has a nice ring to it - and I like it for the idea of the non-traditional relationship starting points and maybe things develop into something more familiar seeming, but not necessarily and things are fine with how they currently are... rambling. Haha - yeah those lyrics do feel like Cloud/Aerith and Cloud/Tifa there - dammit Cloud! Definitely keep that one for consideration... But yeah, something on the intersection of the situations and circumstances is appealing too... Anyway! It's going to be interesting to try and construct the trilogy... I was also thinking about integrating the alternate ideas for Case of Nanaki into the AC portion as well to correct that niggle as well...
Haha - I think maybe your Night Vale crossover is going to work easier then mine; Nibelheim requires a lot of conjecture and head-canoning to work. Heh - yeah the fan_flashworks prompts do seem to lend themselves well to gimmick ideas - though hope you do get to use the gimmick at some point (I've almost gotten up to date with the series...). On that note; mine is currently borrowing an idea from "Materia Shards" (the little note that Yuffie managed to sneak even the White Materia away when she robs the party).
Oh wow - I completely forgot about that line from Bugenhagen - and yeah that firmly marks BC's chapter down as retcon for the original game - and its not reconcilable at all. And for Bugenhagen to be misleading/not reveal Deneh's location at that juncture is just ridiculous. Nuisance retcon!
Ah; the Zack/Aeris voyeur fic wasn't a terribly good one anyway - I think it might have been the same author who wrote the Cloud/Tifa sex scene while Marlene and Denzel were sleeping either side of them, so there is an uncomfortable run of exhibitionism/risk getting caught theme in them.
Glad the Barret losing to the remnants works (I figure this is Yazoo looking for either Cloud or Materia at the Seventh Heaven while Loz heads to the church. ...um, was Loz looking for the materia or was that just a massive coincidence? Either way, I think Yazoo is going to take Marlene and Denzel for the specific connection back to Cloud and not bother with kidnapping anyone else, while Loz has basically stolen heavy-duty spells from the church and left Cloud yet another personal message). And like an earlier discussion, I'll move the Remnant's base to the mythril mines... I was also wondering about keeping canon-compliance further by leaving Rufus and Tseng dead, so in place of Rufus, Reeve is infected with Geostigma and the Turks work directly for him (so Cloud, Tifa and Barret have met him briefly a few times, but most discussion has been remote as he's hiding the infecton). Tseng remains dead, and all three Turks escape the North Crater with Reeve (Vincent is a little trickier to use unless he is just lurking around), and try to fight with the Remnants/I just really want Elena to show up more, and removing the whole torture implications lets that work/I like the idea of the three of them in the Reno/Rude scenes.
Basically it lets the time-frame for travel to get in the range of plausibility once again, and removes the nuisance non-deaths. And then fix just who and how Cid was contacted to round everyone up, and this time everyone gets to help with Bahamut. I was toying with the idea of Tifa going with Cloud to fight the remnants after the church, and them regaining Marlene but Denzel taken back to Edge... And I'm not certain yet on if Tifa can go with Cloud to Midgar in pursuit of Kadaj as well or not...
Heh - yeah, I can see the plot now taking a lot longer to go action-packed and altering the pacing... Still, at least its the advantage of text/less constraints of the time-frame. (and ack; yeah for fans taking sides in Cloud and Tifa roughness and taking it to extremes...)
Being cynical about the Compilation sounds perfectly fair to me!
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-10 06:01 pm (UTC)I think on further consideration I'm just sitting out this round of fan flashworks. I'm not sure how to get the idea I really liked at first and I feel like going with a backup idea is really just for the sake of continuing a chain, which is kind of tiresome. (This is how 750 words got for me too actually, after a while I felt like I was just BSing to get the word count.) Kind of backed up on "cute things", anyway. XD I'll just wait and see what the next prompt is. Though the fact that your fic is borrowing that part of "materia shards" has me curious...
Yeah, I know exhibitionism is a kink for some people--and actually I find that kind of hot, but not voyeurism. So they know the watcher is there = okay. They don't know the watcher is there = aaaack. ...The watcher stumbles on them by accident = hilarious, but the sex is probably going to stop until they get privacy sorted out again.
The materia was a massive coincidence for Loz to find, as far as we see.
....Poor Reeeeeve I'm just imagining a Cait Sith being by his side all the time because worried Cait is worried and trying to cheer his boss up from the despair disease. The reworkings do seem plausible though.
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-10 07:25 pm (UTC)Ah, I've done that with word counts a load of times as well (I don't do the 750 word thing specifically, but I do aim for that each day). And apologies for contributing to your cute things backlog!
Exhibitionism is one of those kinks I've never really thought about before, but I do get the difference between that and voyeurism (thinking about it, would Aeris be potentially into exhibitionism? Tifa feels like she'd be very private about sex). Definitely feels okay if those involved know they're being watched (making that Behind Closed Doors chapter iffy where Cloud knew Rude was watching but Tifa didn't). The other Cloud/Tifa one was icky for the kids being asleep right next to them... Heh - yeah interrupted when having sex is funny, but yeah not getting resumed easily.
Glad the changes seem workable; have to plot it all out at some point... Awww, yeah I can see Cait trying to keep Reeve's spirits up.
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-16 06:33 pm (UTC)Yeah, both the Cloud/Tifa examples there are icky, the first one for Tifa not knowing, the second because their audience is definitely not consenting to watch this. Which is kind of a restriction on enjoying exhibitionism for me too--if it's thrust into someone's face, that's no good either. Which is why for both Tifa and Aerith whether they'd like it is kind of a "well, it depends" thing; I'd assume the exhibitionism is in the semi-public sense where they know everyone involved (if even just as acquaintances) and know they're okay with seeing this, at which point I wouldn't have a problem with a fanfic author going either way on both of them; Tifa likes it, Aerith doesn't, Aerith does, Tifa doesn't, both do, neither... I don't really think either of them would want to expose themselves to strangers. (I suppose I do see Aerith being more willing to risk being found, and even finding that a bit exciting in itself, but the point is actually to evade the risked discovery, not be found. Also I just like the thought of her trying sex outdoors at least once, where that risk is naturally present.) Tifa does seem more inclined to privacy, but sometimes people are surprising in their kinks (sometimes their kinks are specifically about things they find embarrassing) so I wouldn't rule it out for her.
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-16 09:56 pm (UTC)(also; I have wound up writing a gift-fic for Danseru and have so far borrowed some of your head-canon for Gongaga (hope this is okay!) as set out later in 'Sleeping Arrangements' with Aeris winding up in the bed opposite Cloud when they reach the town. Also; this feels like the bleakest birthday present ever - she asked for Aeris visiting Gongaga after she left to head to the City of the Ancients and accepting Zack's death. It, er, came out somewhat melancholic...)
(also on that note, I'm enjoying re-reading the finished chapters of 'Sleeping Arrangements')
I can definitely seeing having the exhibitionism thrust in someone's face being no good either and that either girl's reactions depends on the situation. I can see the semi-public place where they knew everyone/are okay with people seeing them... Definitely can't see either being willing to expose themselves directly to strangers, but I would agree Aeris seems more like someone who would risk being found/finding that exciting - but yeah not actually want to be found. The evasion of being discovered/the thrill of almost being caught makes more sene. Ah! Good point on kinks, and that Tifa might be surprising in her own, so yeah, not ruled out for her either...
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-16 10:47 pm (UTC)I still need to write the next chapter--I've kind of been wanting to fill something in at Cosmo Canyon or Nibelheim (or Wutai, but I wanted to do one of the other two first) for a while. Might be smaller than the other chapters but it's nagging at me now that it otherwise heads straight into Gold Saucer and enchantment night... But yeah, you can borrow that bit.
Re: actual comment response
Date: 2013-09-16 11:01 pm (UTC)Thanks for letting me borrow the head-canon (it just has a real rightness to it with the setup of that room)! I remember the Wutai idea, but I don't remember what you had planned for Cosmo Canyon. And for Nibelheim, wasn't there a short ficlet from Aeris's perspective (her first kiss I think) you wrote a while back, or was that unassociated with 'Sleeping Arrangements'? More chapters is always appealing - and yeah otherwise that's right towards the end of disc 1 otherwise...
Re: actual comment response
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Date: 2013-08-26 08:48 pm (UTC)